When we revile ISIS, we should remember the magnitude of our own massive premeditated murders and our own original sins.
American pilots who dropped napalm on Vietnamese and Cambodian villages did not target noncombatants, but they knew that hitting their targets would cause collateral damage … burning alive noncombatants, including women and children. Given that knowledge, those pilots and their chain of command all the way to Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon were guilty of premeditated killing, though perhaps not premeditated murder.
Perhaps not premeditated murder because of the possibility that such horrible means were required to accomplish an end that could justify those means. Was that the case? In 1929, citing the spirit of the US Declaration of Independence, Ho Chi Minh appealed to Woodrow Wilson to back his effort to free Vietnam from colonial rule. In 1945, citing the Atlantic Charter, he made the same appeal to Harry Truman. If Wilson’s and Truman’s sentimental and ultimately immoral allegiance to French colonialism had not precluded support of what could have become a beacon of democracy and a respectable ally in southeast Asia, thousands of Vietnamese and Cambodian children would not have been burned alive by US pilots. Wilson’s and Truman’s dismissal of Ho Chi Minh was the original sin of the Vietnam War. The means only delayed the end. The end did not justify the means.
Napalm’s viciously successful replacement, MK-77, was used against noncombants in Iraq and Afghanistan in violation of the 1980 United Nations Convention outlawing the use of aerial incendiary bombs against civilian populations, including military targets in civilian areas. Because MK-77 contains it own oxidizing agent and white phosphorus, it burns people alive even after water is poured onto their burning flesh. Though no body counts have been published, it seems certain that more noncombatants than combatants were killed by MK-77 when the city of Fallujah was fire-bombed in 2004. Referring to MK-77 as napalm, US Marine Colonel Randolph Alles quipped “The generals love napalm. It has a big psychological effect”. So the US used MK-77 as a weapon of mass destruction in Fallujah, and as a weapon of mass terrorization in many other parts of Iraq, in its effort to defend the world against terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. The end of war in Iraq is not in sight, but unless it miraculously returns to being the Cradle of Civilization, such means cannot be justified.
Hiroshima, Japan, after the US dropped a nuclear bomb on the city.
In Japan, we burned alive tens of thousands of women and children in Nagasaki and Hiroshima … major cities in a country that had, for practical purposes, already been defeated. As to the charge that ISIS kills fellow Muslims, how many Judeo-Christian women and children did the US and UK burn alive in the fire-bombing of Dresden … a major city in a country that had, for practical purposes, already been defeated? In both cases, the end had been accomplished and the final means were superfluous overkill with weapons of mass destruction.
The Jordanian pilot burned alive by ISIS was guilty of premeditated killing. Whether that pilot’s premeditated killing was also premeditated murder depends on whether his actions were required to accomplish an end that would justify such means. Jordan joined a “coalition of the willing” against ISIS because Jordan’s government is maintained by the Zionist entity – the US of A.* President Obama could not have been more wrong when he asserted that “No God condones terror”. The god of Jedeo-Christianity commands terror. Our original sin is in our Bible. It has nothing to do with Adam and Eve. It has everything to do with commandments to murder or enslave non-Judeo-Christians.
ISIS is horrible but understandable. We should revile ISIS, but we should not demonize ISIS. And when we revile ISIS, we should remember the magnitude of our own massive premeditated murders and our own original sins … the most premeditated, and not even pseudo-defense-related, of which was the recreation of Israel … a nation whose god commands it to destroy non-Judeo-Christians if they happen to have been living on land that Judeo-Christianity claims to have been given to Jews by their god. That end is so offensive, in and of itself, that it does not have the potential to justify any means.
As Obama made his ignorant assertion that “No God condones terror” and proffered his widespread misunderstanding of “Love thy neighbor,” Israel was expanding settlements in the West Bank against a backdrop of Israeli settlers spitting on the family of a 16-year old Palestinian boy that settlers had burned alive. Those settlers were following their god’s commandment to “make them as a blazing oven when you appear … and fire will consume them. You will destroy their offspring from the earth, and their children from among the sons of men” (Psalms 21:9-10).
Note
* The tail does not wag the dog. Israel is the ultimate symptom of American Zionism, not the cause of American Zionism. Americans tend to forget that long before they recreated Israel, their forefathers thought of the United States as God’s New Israel and Native Americans as Canaanites who should be destroyed:
“It has been often remarked that the people of the United States come nearer to a parallel with Ancient Israel than any other nation upon the globe. Hence OUR AMERICAN ISRAEL is a term frequently used; and common consent allows it apt and proper”
— The Reverend Abiel Abbot, Thanksgiving sermon, 1799
Oh, wait a minute! You make the same mistake many folks make….you say “we” when the correct term would be “they”…. I did NOT drop napalm on Vietnamese, deny Ho assistance, drop firestorms on Iraqis, drop nukes on Japan, nor contribute to Native American genocide, nor ANY genocide or killing of ANYONE! Speak for yourself & stop including me in your “we”…..
Oh, and America did NOT recreate Israel. Get your facts straight before you publish falsehoods…
Quite right Dave, Israel was created by Britain. As early as 1944 Britain had officially recognised a British trained Hagana as a “Jewish Defense Force”.
In 1944 Lord Moyne was in Cairo discussing a “Partition” line with David Ben Gurion when he was assassinated on the orders of Yitzhak Shamir, leader of the Jewish Terror organisaion Irgun, who justified this murder by saying he did not want a limit placed on future Israeli borders..
What the US has done though, is to provide unconditional financial and military support from May 1947 to the present time.
Israel could not have conducted 67 years of genocidal apartheid actions without the support of the worlds strongest military Country.
Another popular item in Anti-ZIonist thinking is that wife beating is a sign of an advanced culture. Look here at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGA8i6scYY
Are you an advocate of this Anti-Zionist culture?
Please keep to the subject, it`s quite childish to ignore my comments and then introduce completely unrelated subjects.
Adult debate = Good.
Immature irrelevances = Pointless.
Relevance is in the eye of the beholder. You are now saying you don’t want anyone criticizing your wife beating ways.
It`s simply irrelevant Arhilles,
As irrelevant as Americans kidnapping young girls to use them, for years, as sex slaves in chains.
I`m British, so I`m bias, I`m effected by British propaganda or Conditional bias if you like.
But I`m also aware that Britain committed acts of genocide, In Kenya the British buried alive Kenyan Terrorists/Freedom fighters, take your pick!
Britain has just paid £millions to Kenyans and apologised for the War Crimes (British Government`s definition) committed in Kenya. That`s just 1 example.
Every single country accused every other country of genocidal crimes, while doing just the same.
This article simply makes that point.
P.S. Have you ever wondered if the US is perceived, in the world, as arrogant as the British were, when Brits ruled the world?
Far more likely to find Anti-Zionists doing this. Those with a pro-American view who do as your suggested, should indeed be condemned. The US committed genocide as respect Native Americans, not elsewhere, no matter what you say. Genocidal anti-Zionists are not caesars wives. They are not above suspicion.
This is especially so with fascist entities like ISIS & Hamas, etc.
No State, Country or Empire is (throughput history) above suspicion, Achilles. It`s always been the way of the world that military superiority has imposed change.
The “establishment” will always resist diplomatic requests for change. I have no doubts at all, that America would now be a part of the British Commonwealth, had it not been for those American “rebels” (and a French helping hand)!
The US appointed King-Crane Commission was sent to explore the possibility of establishing a “Jewish homeland” in Palestine.
It`s findings were; “Such a proposal is not feasible, for two main reasons;
1. It would require the removal of the intrinsic population.
2. It could only be sustained by force of arms”
In a post WW1 Middle East, the British and French, with US influence, imposed the Jigsaw of borders and compliant Governments, on a formerly borderless M.E.
Almost 100 years later Israel still needs “force of arms” to exist, and the M.E. is going through a revolution much the same as the US, French, Russian and possibly Chinese revolutions. All were led by “extremists” who were rejecting the established system, and none were bloodless.
Iran completed a revolution in 1979, rejecting western influence, yet Iran, despite sanctions, has succeeded quite well and now has China`s (and Russia) protection.
IS is a concern to the “establishment” of the M.E. Brutal as it it, it is a popular movement, Whether or not it will succeed militarily is not the problem, the problem is the Jini is out of the bottle (Al Qaeda took the cork out).
In the meantime “The people” are fed propaganda by their Governments who seek to maintain their establishment systems, by demonising others.
It`s a funny old world Arhilles, wherever I`ve been, I`ve found the locals are pretty much like myself, critical of our Governments!
P.S. It`s always good to talk.
I think much better of our government, having traveled a bit & talked with the locals.
Ah, I thought it would come down to the wickedness of the Jews. Funny how the only state whose existence is illegitimate happens to be the one inhabited by… Jews. What a coincidence! Apparently UNY tolerates racist scum.
What a shame though, S.M. Stirling, that European immigrants could not live in a Palestine and work together with the intrinsic population, rather than insisting that Israelis must be Jewish with a State for their exclusive use.
Over 50 Israeli laws that affect only Palestinian Israelis, Arab/Israeli marriages are not recognised, Arab Israelis are not allowed to bring non-Israeli spouses into Israel.
4.9 million UN registered Palestinian refugees all denied the right of return to their homeland, not because they don`t accept the words of the Torah, they do, but because they also accept the words of a Palestinian Arab Rabi called Jesus, and the words of Mohammed.
You may feel that is legitimate, most of the world opinion is now swinging against that position.
The author suggests that ISIS be given some tolerance. Do you agree? Take a gander at Anti-Zionism in the raw sometimes. Here’s an example of an Anti-Zionist on stoning to death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8Sja3h6DeA
Is that your feeling too?
That, Achilles, is a rather prejudiced assumption, it`s a shame that you seek to polarise a debate, I was simply pointing out that there are other perspectives other than our own conditional bias ones.
I`m all for debate, but at an adult level please.
The adult level you seek is X rated.
So what about chopping hands of thieves? Is it not outrageous?
Equating Imperial Japan & the United States is a sure sign of an Axis apologist.
I don’t recall the U.S. burning people in a ritualistic manner. When we fire bombed cities in Europe and Asia we won. And Vietnam today is a country that eagerly welcomes Americans for Business or pleasure. The final chapter for U.S. involvement the Middle East is yet to be written. I suggest more fire bombing.
Are you saying that it`s OK for the US to burn people in a non-ritualistic way?
Are you saying that bombing Vietnam with Napalm and Toxic gas is why Vietnam today “eagerly welcomes” Americans for Business of pleasure?
Perhaps Americans get an eager welcome because Vietnam does not hate capitalists the way Americans hate Communists?
Are you saying “the final” chapter for the US in the M.E. will not be like Vietnam?
Have you realised that where China has had an interest (North Korea, Vietnam) the US has failed militarily?
P.S. China has an interest in the M.E. and is friendly to Iran, oh heck!
Holy cow Mike. Yes I’m saying it’s OK with me to fire bomb our enemies. I have no doubt our enemies will fire bomb the U.S. if they can. OH I forgot they already have. I’m saying Vietnam welcomes us because it’s good business and they know we bombed them in war and and it’s over and there glad. And yes we hate communism only a fool dose not. We did not fail in Korea or Vietnam, Today Korea is a economic Asian Tiger and Vietnam want’s to be. The U.S. military insured Korea would be free to grow and prosper becoming the global economic contributor it is today. The U.S. military impact and influence on Vietnam also made it what it is today. There is a reason Southern Vietnam is more prosperous then Northern Vietnam.
The article tries to compare American pilots bombing Vietnam to ISIS burning captured personal. That’s not only idiotic but insulting.
Actually James, it`s just Vietnam, the North absorbed the South, it`s all communist now, so I`m a bit confused how US military impact and influence made Vietnam what it is today!
I took the point of the article as being, perhaps, that Americans might just consider how non-Americans might be perceived around the world today.
Anyway, the US bombed Mao`s communist forces in China!!
China is now the worlds strongest economy and it usually follows that the country with the most wealth gets the big guns to play with (well historically that`s so) and China is …… er ……. communist?
P.S. I`m in a slight wind up mood, so don`t let me provoke you, any way I`m a Brit, so I`m entitled to be slightly eccentric, judging from US movies that is!
Have a good day, honest.
I think you need to slow down when you read. “”Southern Vietnam is more prosperous then Northern Vietnam”” The city of Saigon [the locals still call it that] is more of a modern business driven city with more opportunity then Hanoi. Many did business with the U.S. back then and they learned a lot. And those lessons are applied today.
“”I took the point of the article as being, perhaps, that Americans might just consider how non-Americans might be perceived around the world today”” Not sure what your asking here. A lot of people want to immigrate to America because of the opportunities here and I don’t blame them.
China is a strong economy and no body wants to immigrate to China.
I enjoy good conversation. You can click my name and find out who I am. Click your name and, well not much there.
I have my opinion about Britain
Actually James, The French were probably more influential for “progress” in Vietnam. The French Indochina was quite a large french colony from the mid 19th century.
The Japaneese occupied during WW2, when the Viet Mhin, led by Ho Chi Minh started, in 1941, resistance to foreign occupation, this continued after 1946 when the French resumed their occupation. which ended by negotiation in 1953.
In 1950 President Truman sent $10 million of military supplies, and US troops to supervise the use of military supplies. The US continued to supply a whole range of arms, including aircraft and 24 US pilots to fly them, in French colours!
By 1955 the US was involved in what would be an almost 20 year war with an increasing military commitment. I may be wrong, but during this time, I am not aware of any US program, implemented or even proposed, for the exclusive benefit of Vietnamese civilians.
The “Vietnamese” were anti occupiers, the US was simply the third foreign nation to fail in the attempt to impose foreign values onto the Vietnamese.
But hey! The British tried that in America and also failed in the 1770`s eh! It`s a “Will of the people thing” and sooner or later the will of the people triumphs (I`m pleased to say).
I might claim that Britain made the US what it is today, but for the fact that I find a much greater Italian influence on Americans attitude, you would have to visit the UK and Italy to see why I say that.
I can`t argue with you about a lot of people immigrating to the US, you could add Australia and Canada, load`s of available space might also be a factor?
Like you I has assumed no one would want to immigrate to China, I found some 2010 Chinese figures, showing 1 million foreign residents in China, including 257,587 females (If I were an attractive 18 years old Mandarin speaking female, it would be China for me, there`s a shortage of females and a surfeit of Billionaires!).
Basically James, I like being British, because I have been subconsciously conditioned that way, I like to holiday in the US (Never been to Florida, but Vail is the best ski resort there is, in my opinion, and the National Parks are just ……. well you know), as for living in the US, well that just has no appeal at all, it`s just too different in every way you can think of!.
Would the gift some power give us, to see ourselves as others see us, and that applies to all of us!
P.S. One of the pleasures of the US, is the politeness, you don`t get much politeness in the UK.
.
I copy on the history lesson. Will have more on Monday.
Vietnam was a complex beast during WWII. Nazi Germany sided with Imperial Japan against Vichy France as respects Indochina, example of war priorities displacing superiority-of-race policies of Nazi Germany.
A bolt out of the blue Archlles!
I don`t agree that Vietnam was a complex situation though, as far as the US was concerned any Communist “expansion” was unacceptable to the US.
The US Government at the time, was very concerned at what was termed “The Domino affect” of countries “falling” under communist rule and were determined to prevent that happening at all costs.
The French had failed to make French administration acceptable to the Vietnamese people (pretty much as the British failed to make British Administration acceptable to Americans) Some obviously enjoyed benefits of French rule, but the majority did not.
I could make a strong case of examples where the US did not accept “the will of the people” and when it did not concur with US ideals, the US response was military action.
It goes on still: Saudi Arabia and Bahrain have pretty serious “resistance” to the administrative system in those countries that occur without comment by the US. Yet resistance to the systems in Libya and Syria were supported by the US.
Israel has for over 67 years received unconditional US financial and military support. There you have an artificial creation of the West, occupied by European and Western immigrants, all who believe that only they have the right to live on Palestinian land.
6 million Israelis subjugate some 12 million Palestinians by force of arms. Granted the US has criticised Israeli actions, the expansion of Israeli only housing in the occupied West Bank is just one example, yet the US has made no practical attempts to oblige Israel to take into account the well of the intrinsic inhabitants.
It seems to me, as a non-American, that US double standards are a result of what the US want`s rather that what is justified.
P.S. It`s not a new phenomenon, the Brits (and every previous dominant military power) were just the same. a sort of we can do it, so we will.
P.P.S. The Foreign Policy Journal forums are, in my opinion, the best around, lot`s of opposing views without resorting to insults!,
-6 million Israelis subjugate some 12 million Palestinians by force of arms–
And most of those Israelis imported from other countries!
Commie pig in Vietnam is so, well, so post-WWII. During & before WWII, there was no commie threat. All there were were foreign powers. Imagine being a poor Vietnamese fellow at the time. Here are your choices: 1) those nasty French colonists, 2) those nasty Chinese colonists who had been bothering Vietnam for centuries before the French, & 3) the people who bombed Pearl Harbor & raped Beijing. For me, the history of Vietnam during WWII remains a great mystery.
Don`t you just love the internet, Achilles!
Where else can a couple of total strangers living miles apart debate (and solve?) the problems of the world?
I can`t agree that Communism was a post WW2 phenomenon, Russia had a 1917 revolution which swept communists into power.
In 1920`s Europe communism was seen as a very serious threat to the establishments of many European countries. Spain and Italy had civil wars and street fighting between Communists and what became known as Fascists, in those countries Fascists came out on top.
Strange to say, but Fascism and Communism were both Socialist ideals with Hitler, who had a paranoid hatred for Communism, adopting Fascism in Germany.
Post WW1, in Europe, there was strong public opinion supporting the removal of Monarchies (who were all related to each other) and establishments that had taken Europe into a completely avoidable WW1, without much thought of what would replace them.
Communism, and Fascism were alternatives to the rejected systems, and far from perfect, still it was not until 1991 when “The people” rejected Communism in Russia, then other Balkan States.
Only China has succeeded in creating a successful Communist system, albeit with a controlled form of capitalism, where it is permissible to become a billionaire and still comply with State rules. It remains to be seen how long China can continue with this controlled balancing act, but so far that system has certainly improved the lives of the Chinese population, at all levels.
As for Vietnam, or any country, the intrinsic population will always resent foreign interference, sometimes it does`nt have to be foreigners that are resented, as Americans demonstrated in the 1770`s!
In Vietnam, Ho Chi Minh had been successful in removing French occupation, when the US replaced the French it was natural that he would be the focal point for a popular movement resisting US occupation, irrespective of his political leanings.
It`s a “Will of the People” thing!
For Vietnam, the communist insurgency was not an issue until after WWII; Mr. Ho Chi Minh did not become a problem until after the Imperial Japanese had been routed. The problem for the poor Vietnamese souls is that there was no choice of independence at all. If you begin to read about things, you will see some people of very high intelligence beginning to work with the Japanese. No one could really work with the French because they were under the Nazi German boot at the time. It was a real rock & a hard place for all concerned. I have no idea what I would have done had I been Thai, Vietnamese, Indonesian, Cambodian, etc., etc., etc. In retrospect, choosing the Imperial Japanese would have been the worst choice, given the horrific & monstrous things they wound up doing, but everything is 20/20 in hindsight, as they say.
Fascism differed from communism in several respects, the most important of which was the joy of endless war & territorial conquest. The communists simply did not enslave entire countries the way the fascists did. In fact, Cuba was always a great drain on Russia. They were a bad lot, the communists were, but nothing like the fascists in the sense of world conquest; today, the only communists left are the monarchies of Cuba & North Korea. Today the world again faces world conquerors in the form of the Jihadists, who also want to own as many slaves as they can get in the process. You can actually see them gloat over their Yazidi slave girls on the net. Rather repulsive individuals in general.
I`m pleased you responded, Achilles, there is nothing like a good debate, as long as everyone accepts the opinions stated are all from one`s own perspective!
After WW1 and prior to WW1 the US was “inward thinking” US interest were focused on domestic issues, the wider world was a place to be avoided, and it was.
In 1939 US armed forces were smaller than Portugal`s, at the end of WW2 the US had the worlds largest armed forces, probably greater than the rest of the world put together, and the new world superpower, was well and truly involved with World affairs
All the old colonial powers were vague shadows of what they has been, except Soviet Russia, which at that time occupied all of Eastern Europe, and was Communist!
That`s when Communism became a problem for the US,
but Communism had been spreading since the early 20`s China`s Communist party started in 1921 and despite US support for the Nationalists and bombings of Mao`s people army, China was a Communist country by 1949.
Military actions against North Korea and Vietnam did not lead those people to reject Communism, rather it was the the reverse that happened. Elsewhere when Communism was lo longer acceptable to “the people” Communism was rejected, even, in 1991, in Soviet Russia!
North Korea presents the US as the great threat, China has several annual “remembrance” days of US “aggression” (and British and French), the film “55 Days in Peking” portrays Western heroics defending against maniac Chinese murderers, to the Chinese it`s an example of militarily aggressive Western imperialism!
I`ve often wondered if the US had just let Communism run it`s course, would North Korea and China still be Communist, the same with Cuban sanctions?
My original comments two months ago were really just questioning the merits of bombing the k-rap out of people with differing perspectives/political views/religion.
As for “Jihadists” that`s a whole new situation, but did you know that the borders of the M.E. and North Africa are totally artificial? They did not evolve naturally (Arabs have never had formal borders, rather they used “Spheres of Influence”) The borders we in the West accept as being “written in the sands of time” were created by The British and French, in 1919/22, at that time the Governments of those newly created countries were compliant Arabs that would do as they were told (The Hashemite`s ruling Jordan were brought from Saudi Arabia by the British, as a reward for ceasing to Fight the French) .
It`s caused resentment from day one and has resulted in extremist response, IS, like it or not, is very popular with many Arabs (and Muslims) who oppose “Western Imperialism” or “Crusaders” as we`re called. Hamas and Hezbulla are local forerunners of IS. And Iran is regarded as the first M.E. country to reject Western Imperialism and succeed and Iraq regarded as victim of Western interests..
China is now a major player in the M.E.and is Iran`s major trading partner, done without resorting to military threats.
As a 6 year old I asked my Grandmother, what`s the difference between
Labour and Conservatives (2 UK political parties), she replied “They are
all the same when they get in power”.
What all Governments need to do is to retain the support of the people, and no matter where we live, we are all subject to “Conditional Bias” from our Governments and our establishments, and it`s the establishments that work the hardest to convince “the people” they are doing the right thing. For example “Conditional bias” in countries that are dislikes is called “Brainwashing”.
It`s a funny old world Achillies, but it`s good to talk.
Well, that`s my perspective anyway!
–the end of WW2 the US had the worlds largest armed forces–
History after WW2 with reference to USA has been well related. So wherever we go America has some mischief done.
Then what you are saying is that the communists, like Stalin, Mao, & Brezhnev, were the good guys. That’s assuredly wrong. Those persons exported revolution, which sounds good until one realizes that one is exporting little dictatorships. Now it was not as bad as fascism, but it still stank. The reason was that communism really does not work in practice, except when transforming an agrarian, relatively primitive economy into an industrial economy. So it failed again & again & again. Eventually, the communists gave up communism because it simply does not work in general. The only communist paradises remaining are in Cuba & North Korea, neither of which are very nice places to live, The US won the Cold War, thank heavens, & the world is better for that.
Now North Korea does have some nice music. Here’s an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZiVWXjsaJg
Heck, makes you want to live there right now, does it not?
The only problem with your analysis is that it misses the truly nasty nature of those WWII fascists, namely the matter of global conquest, which the Jihadists now desire, having developed their fascist impulse from the original fascist piggies, Al Banna, Al Husseini, & Qutb. Here’s how the US saw things, via Justice Jackson, at the Nuremberg trials:
The privilege of opening the first trial in history for crimes
against the peace of the world imposes a grave responsibility. The
wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish have been so calculated, so
malignant and so devastating, that civilization cannot tolerate their
being ignored because it cannot survive their being repeated. That four
great nations, flushed with victory and stung with injury stay the hand
of vengeance and voluntarily submit their captive enemies to the
judgment of the law is one of the most significant tributes that Power
ever has paid to Reason.
This tribunal, while it is novel and experimental, is not the product
of abstract speculations nor is it created to vindicate legalistic
theories. This inquest represents the practical effort of four of the
most mighty of nations, with the support of seventeen more, to utilize
International Law to meet the greatest menace of our times-aggressive
war. The common sense of mankind demands that law shall not stop with
the punishment of petty crimes by little people. It must also reach men
who possess themselves of great power and make deliberate and concerted
use of it to set in motion evils which leave no home in the world
untouched. It is a cause of this magnitude that the United Nations will
lay before Your Honors.
In the prisoners’ dock sit twenty-odd broken men. Reproached by the
humiliation of those they have led almost as bitterly as by the
desolation of those they have attacked, their personal capacity for evil
is forever past. It is hard now to perceive in these miserable men as
captives the power by which as Nazi leaders they once dominated much of
the world and terrified most of it. Merely as individuals, their fate is
of little consequence to the world.
What makes this inquest significant is that those prisoners represent
sinister influence that will lurk in the world long after their bodies
have returned to dust. They are living symbols of racial hatreds, of
terrorism and violence, and of the arrogance and cruelty of power. They are symbols of fierce nationalisms and militarism, of intrigue and war-making which have embroiled Europe generation after generation, crushing its manhood, destroying its homes, and impoverishing its life.
They have so identified themselves with the philosophies they conceived and with the forces they directed that any tenderness to them is a victory and an encouragement to all the evils which are attached to their names. Civilization can afford no compromise with the social forces which would gain renewed strength if we deal ambiguously or indecisively with the men in whom those forces now precariously survive.
________
The evil then was fascism. The evil today is Islamic fascism.
You now seem to be linking, Nazi Germany expansion with Islam, Achilles, I`m not sure that is valid, but I`ll try to give you an example of differing US responses to similar situations. Based on historical events involving “Fascists” and “Islamic Fascism”. .
Post WW1 Germany was forced to relinquish her Foreign Colonies (Taken over by the British in Africa) and had punitive punishments that, in retrospect the victorious allies accepted were too harsh.
What was to become The National Socialist German Workers Party (NAZI) was founded in 1919, when Hitler joined and eventually rose to power in 1933.
Hitler promised the German people that he would re-create the Carolingian Reich of Emperor Charlemange, who in the 9th century conquered all of Western Europe and as far East as modern Hungary, imposing Christianity on mainly pagan tribes (7,000 Saxons were beheaded in one day for refusing to forsake their pagan Gods).
Creating a third Reich, was universally supported by all German people who were convinced that Hitler was retaking what had always been German. (Napoleon also claimed Charlemangs heritage when he went on his European expansion in the 1800`s).
Britain and The US rejected the delusional justification for Nazi expansion and Germany was defeated.
David Ben Gurion promised the Jewish people that he would re-create the Israeli Kingdom of Davis and Solomon, who had ruled in the Levant for 69 years, some 3,000 years ago.
Britain and the US supported that, no less delusional, justification, for “A State of Israel” to be created on Palestinian land.
US sent the King-Crane Commission to Palestine in 1919
to explore the possibility of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. The findings were stark; Such a proposal was not viable for two main reasons, 1 It would require the removal of the intrinsic population, and 2. It could only be sustained by force of arms.
That`s the case today, there are 4.9 million UN registered Palestinian refugees, all denied the right of return to their homeland, and Israel has one of the most powerful armies in the world, including nuclear warheads and a US supplied delivery system.
Hitler was opposed with US military might, Israel is supported by US military might, yet the justification was the same for Germany and Israel.
I don`t think “Arabs” oppose the State of Israel because of the religion of Western immigrants to Palestine, they oppose Westerners occupation of Middle Eastern land.
Palestinians would object to Western occupiers of their land, even if they were Druids.
Nor will the US allow the UN to debate the situation, over 40 UN Security Council resolutions that were critical of Israel have been vetoed by the US. To put that in perspective, 13 UN Security Council resolutions critical of Iraq`s (mythical) WMD were all that the US required to lead the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
Islamic fascism is, with the greatest respect, a gross simplification that obscures the reality, I accept that that is the belief of most Americans, but it is not based on reality, it`s based on “Conditional bias” sorry.
Fascism generally attaches itself to a religion. In WWII, the attachments were predominantly to the Catholic Church on the part of fascist Italy, to the Protestant & Catholic German Churches on the part of Nazi Germany, & to Shinto Buddhism on the part of Imperial Japan. There were also Islamic SS regiments, but they were not the primary attachments.
Isreal has never indicated a desire to military conquer the planet. That’s the real difference between fascists, either in WWII or today among the Jihadists, and Israel. It’s a difference you cannot ignore, because the communists never intended to military conquer the planet; they did want to start revolutions in these places, but not to conquer them militarily. Everything else stemmed from the military conquest aspect. Here is Justice Jackson:
But justice in this case has nothing to do with some of the arguments
put forth by the defendants or their counsel. We have not previously
and we need not now discuss the merits of all their obscure and tortuous
philosophy. We are not trying them for the possession of obnoxious
ideas. It is their right, if they choose, to renounce the Hebraic
heritage in the civilization of which Germany was once a part. Nor is it
our affair that they repudiated the Hellenic influence as well. The
intellectual bankruptcy and moral perversion of the Nazi regime might
have been no concern of international law had it not been utilized to
goosestep the Herrenvolk across international frontiers. It is not their
thoughts, it is their overt acts which we charge to be crimes. Their
creed and teachings are important only as evidence of motive, purpose,
knowledge, and intent.
We charge unlawful aggression but we are not trying the motives,
hopes, or frustrations which may have led Germany to resort to
aggressive war as an instrument of policy. The law, unlike politics,
does not concern itself with the good or evil in the status quo, nor
with the merits of the grievances against it. It merely requires that
the status quo be not attacked by violent means and that policies be not
advanced by war. We may admit that overlapping ethnological and
cultural groups, economic barriers, and conflicting national ambitions
created in the 1930’s, as they will continue to create, grave problems
for Germany as well as for the other peoples of Europe. We may admit too
that the world had failed to provide political or legal remedies which
would be honorable and acceptable alternatives to war. We do not
underwrite either the ethics or the wisdom of any country, including my
own, in the face of these problems. But we do say that it is now, as it
was for sometime prior to 1939, illegal and criminal for Germany or any
other nation to redress grievances or seek expansion by resort to
aggressive war.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/07-26-46.asp
______
Note that aggressive war was not the conquest of something puny, like Northern Cyprus, or even tiny, like the entirety of Isreal, the West Bank, & Gaza, or even moderately sized, like the Crimean Peninsula, but the whole land mass of Europe in the case of Nazi Germany & much of the land mass of Asia in the case of Imperial Japan.
Today the Jihadists want to conquer the planet in the same way. That’s specifically as ordered by the Islamic fascist Qutb! There is no way that communism, zionism, Americanism, or any other ism compares with that monstrous characteristic, from which all the other horrors of WWII stemmed.
Here the Islamic Fascist pigs show they want to conquer Kenya:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DAhIlzU8Is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7rX1kGn-yM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85hYDs-3NRU
Here the Islamic Fascist pigs show they want to conquer the world via the conquest of Rome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUVxxjuK-JI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHlWUIaVb4s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WyjY5OmcD8
Note that this is not an inherent belief for Islam by any means. Like everyone else, reasonable Muslims centuries ago decided it was stupid & violent to try to conquer the planet.
Now if you can show Israel saying “we will conquer the world,” you might have a point.
The point I was making Achilles, was Hitlers Justification for conquest was exactly the same as David Ben Gurions justification, that was; The recreation of what once existed long long ago, The only difference was the scale of what was going to be re-created.
One was opposed by Britain and The US, one was supported by Britain and the US with public opinion firmly behind both countries Governments, on both occasions.
As for Islamic conquests of the world, well the consensus is that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, if you equate “Expansion” with “Conquest” then you are probably correct.
I don`t give a monkeys what religion any one chooses, (it`s all a nonsense to me).
But while you mention “Islamic conquest of the world”, I could quite easily respond with; There is already a “Christian” domination of the world, with a Christian USA with armed forces more powerful that the next 7 most powerful armed forces, and over 1,000 military bases in foreign countries.
While no doubt this situation is agreeable to American citizens, there are possibly non-Americans who differ to US public opinion, which is the crux of the published story.
As for lists showing how bad the bad guys are, I`m not too keen on that approach, both sides end up with endless lists!
America is a super place, with super people, I`ve had nothing but excellent times when I`ve visited, I`ve walked part of The Appalachian Way, been skiing in the Rockies, and melancholy when I stumbled across a cemetery with 2,000 graves, a result of Confederate and Union forces ally stumbling across each other during the night at Franklin.
I also spent a couple of months back packing in Iran, where the people, including Police and Soldiers, were disarmingly friendly and unbelievably helpful. One or two asked “Why does the US hate us”!
Nothing remotely like Iran is portraid in the West, Tehran is spectacular, and dirt cheap. I shall probably visit the US again, but I shall certainly visit Iran again.
P.S. And I`m not a Commy Jihadist Fascist, I`m just a Soccer loving Brit that want`s to get by!
There is no Christian element of fascism today in the sense that no Christian fascist group that wants to conquer the world is now present to any extent; not so with the nasty Jihadist pigs. Unless you like North Korea your statements about the US are somewhat lacking in credibility. As for Hitler & Ben Gurion, here’s a quote from Mein Kampf:
Then, if we were serious, whether we liked it or not, we would have to wage wars in order to arrive at pacifism. This and nothing else was what Wilson, the American world savior, intended, or so at least our German visionaries believed-and thereby his purpose was fulfilled. In actual fact the pacifistic-humane idea is perfectly all right perhaps when the highest type of man has previously conquered and subjected the world to an extent that makes him the sole ruler of this earth. Then this idea lacks the power of producing evil effects in exact proportion as its practical application becomes rare and finally impossible.
Now, unless you can find a quote from Ben Gurion that says the world will not be happy until someone who deserves it conquers it, you are wrong.
You are kind of on the opposite side of communism, but that’s just one man’s opinion. Tons of fascist piglets in British soccer, one hears. Do you think Oswald was a great guy? He seemed like a fragment of moose dung to me.
If you read my previous comments, you will see that I described Nazi (Fascist) expansion justification as,”Delusional”, Achilles.
Yet Hitler had the overwhelming support of the German population, they presumably thought he was “In the right”
You appear to be putting words into my mouth! perhaps that could be because you are reluctant to accept that US actions around the world may not be enthusiastically supported?
Pre-WW2 USA had a very strong pro-German organisations, with huge marches/demonstrations during 1939. At that time US public opinion was overwhelming against US military conflict against Germany, and very reluctant to provide any material support to Britain.
But for the Japan (Allies of Germany) attack on Pearl Harbour, it`s a moot point if US public opinion would have allowed the US to enter war in Europe. Oswald Mosley had American equivalents!
The world is not as black and white, good or bad as you seem to wish to present it, or accept that sometimes the US has/can be “The bad Guy”.
Resistance to Soviet Russian occupation of Afghanistan was actively supported by the US, The CIA created Al Qaeda, training Bin Laden in “terror “Techniques to be used against Russian occupiers, who claimed they were there to “Root out terrorists hiding in Afghanistan”, yet the US simply presented Soviet Russia as the “Bad guys”.
For the past 14 years the US has been doing in Afghanistan exactly what Soviet Russia was doing, only this time the US presents it`self as the “Good guys”. Neat footwork, eh!
FASCISM.
I know what Italian Fascism was, and it was widely admired, and copied, for the way it improved the standard of and quality of life for Italians in the 20`s and 30`s, but. I`m completely bewildered at what “Fascism” actually means these days (Nigel Farage a right wing UK politician, called Scottish Republicans, Fascists when they shouted him down!), it seems it`s used as an insult with little regard to it`s meaning. Hitlers Germany was a NAZI country, yet “Fascist” is the label that is now applied.
ISRAEL
David Ben Gurion said in 1947; “Let us not delude ourselves, WE are the aggressors, they (Palestinians) fight to defend THEIR land”.
David Ben Gurion (and many other Zionists) repeatedly said, during the 20`s, 30`s and 40`s; “The Palestinian people are the descendents of the inhabitants of the ancient land of Judea”.
Israel have expanded it`s borders to de facto include, all of Palestine, part of Syria and The Lebanon, creating in the process 4.9 million UN registered Palestinian refugees, all denied the right of return to their homeland.
Since 1947 the US has provided unconditional financial and military support, plus vetoing over 40 UN Security Council resolutions critical of Israeli actions, so rendering Israel free from UN sanctions.
Compare that with the 13 UN Security Council resolutions that were passed critical of Iraqi (non-existent) W.M.D.
P.S. I`m quite happy to debate till the cows come home, but not if you continue with veiled insults, life is too short for that nonsense.
.
.
–Since 1947 the US has provided unconditional financial and military support, plus vetoing over 40 UN Security Council resolutions critical of Israeli actions, so rendering Israel free from UN sanctions.–
Only in one sentence the whole gory drama of Israel-Palestine has been explained.
You have not condemned Oswald Mosley. Are you in favor of Mr. Mosley or his American thuggish correlates, including LIndbergh & Father Coughlin?
Mosley was a product of his time, in those days he was certainly not considered a one off maverick with extreme ideas.
Italy and Germany had emerged from chaos to become examples of how effective their leaderships were, there was world envy (Even in the US) for the transformation of those countries, when the then popular alternative, communism, was represented by the ineffective cruelties in Soviet Russia.
That Mosley had a popular following simply represented the public sentiment at that time.
To imply approval of Mosleys historical activities is inappropriate, It would be similarly misleading to imply that to-days Americans approved of the actions of the Ku Klux Klan, which was similarly popular in the 1930`s.
In to-days world, both Mosley (and others) and the Ku Klux Klan are regarded as the extremists they were.
Do you think world conquest is a delusional idea?
Answer that specifically.
Then consider this from a very recent Australian article:
Associate Professor Bronwyn Winter, taking issue with Professor Riemer’s email, wrote: “Just in case people didn’t know, Uthman Badar is a spokesman for Hizb ut-Tahrir, which is an explicitly political movement the goal of which is to reinstall a caliphate and to do so worldwide. I won’t get stated on the group’s attitudes to women. “This is part of the Islamist extreme-right, it is to the Muslim world what Nazism was to Europe in the 1930s and 1940s and indeed still is. To organise a speaker from this group on the anniversary of 9/11 is at the very least in extremely poor taste and at worst highly offensive to many.”
http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/we-should-allow-them-to-express-their-anti-semitism-university-of-sydney-staff/story-fnkgbb3b-1227330793084
Yes, it was delusional, ultimately, for the Nazi Germans, the Italian Fascists, & the Imperial Japanese to want to conquer the planet. It is delusional for the Jihadists to want the same. Being delusional, however, does not mean that one is harmless. Mr. James Holmes, who shot up the movie theater in Colorado, was delusional.
World domination is not only delusional, Achilles, it`s impossible!
World domination would require that everyone subject to that domination has exactly the same “perspectives” as those attempting “world dominance, clearly that is not possible.
Nor is world military dominance practical, Britain tried that and failed as British Military dominance faded, replaced by US Military dominance and financial dominance.
Next will probably be China, already the new financial superpower and no doubt sooner or late the worlds dominant military power.
With 4 times USA population it`s difficult to see how that can be prevented. and it`s a situation that “the West” will have anguish adjusting to.
The American Samuel P Huntington said; In the emerging world of ethnic conflicts and civilisation clash, Western belief in the universality of western culture suffers three problems: It is false; it is immoral; and it is dangerous.
And that, Achilles, sums up this article, rather that castigate those that do not accept US perspectives, perhaps the USA should consider how US actions are perceived elsewhere!
One other point.
Consider this article.
http://alef.ir/vdcgtu9x3ak93t4.rpra.html?267446
To me the authors of that article & those who believe its words are, morally speaking, bowls of rat dung. What say you?
It`s in Arabic, I presume, Achilles, and that language is all Greek to me!
US citizens would love nothing better than to not have about 1,000 bases across the planet; they exist because the governments in charge of those places have requested them & we have determined it is in our best interest to protect those governments. Likely, given the fall of communism that is not true. Nonetheless, the monstrous Jihadists have rendered such things a necessity. At this time, the Jihadists have conquered Libya, are moving into Afghanistan with greater avidity, have conquered much of Syria, & have done all manner of awful things which ultimately threaten all. Saudi Arabia has whacked some of them in Yemen.
You are the first person to actually express admiration of Italian fascism, for its popularity, in my experience. Do you think Oswald Mosley was a good guy?
If WWII is not black & white, then the crime of our famed football player, Aaron Hernandez, is not “black & white”; to me he is a monstrous murderer. Your Ben Gurion quotes do not include a statement to the effect that Jews should rule the planet; you lose for that reason. Israel gave up two-thirds of its land mass in the 1970’s.
The issue is continental/world conquest, not a dispute over puny acreage or peaceful conversion of persons of other faiths. The Axis powers actually attempted continental conquests, precisely what those Jihadists are attempting today. An Islamic fascist was just convicted as respects the Boston marathon bombing; most Muslims, not being fascists, condemn such violence & desires. Consider FDR 8 Dec 41:
The attack yesterday on the Hawaiian Islands has caused severe damage to American naval and military forces. I regret to tell you that very many American lives have been lost. In addition, American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu. Yesterday the Japanese Government also launched an attack against Malaya. Last night Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong. Last night Japanese forces attacked Guam. Last night Japanese forces attacked the Philippine Islands. Last night the Japanese attacked Wake Island. And this morning the Japanese attacked Midway Island. Japan has therefore undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday and today speak for themselves. The people of the United States have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation.
America failed to whack Japan after the Manchurian Incident. Our worst present, Herbert Hoover, acted like Chamberlain at that point. Because the idiot failed in that respect & the UK/France failed similarly after the Rheinland militarization, 400,000 US soldiers lost their lives saving the planet from these monsters. There would have been very little problem had the free nations of the world acted appropriately. Neither Japanese nor Germans born after say 1933 bear a scintilla of blame for the acts of these monsters, of course.
Those 1,000 US military bases exist, Achilles, because the US want`s 1,000 military bases in foreign Countries.
The US pays $ billions each year to Foreign countries, if those foreign countries wanted US bases, have no doubt, the US would charge those foreign countries $ billions each year.
Those US bases are subject to public demonstrations for them to close throughout Europe, even in the UK there are regular demonstrations demanding their closure! Same in Italy, Germany, Spain and I understand in Japan.
You fail to see the similarity of Hitlers popular appeal to re-create the Carolingian empire, which was apposed by the US, with Ben Gurions popular appeal to re-create the Kingdom of Davis and Solomon, which was supported by the US.
The scale of the Nazi intention was greater than the Zionist intention, granted, that apart both situations are identical.
You have made it very clear that you feel “Jihadist`s” aim is to “dominate the World”, personally I don`t agree with that, I do feel that IS, for example, is a result of past Western Imperialist actions and, like it or not, IS has great popularity, I have no idea if that is because of IS barbarity or despite IS barbarity.
All the M.E. borders we now see were created by “the west” with collaborating Arabs imposed as leaders for those artificial countries, it was only going to be a matter of time before “the peoples resentment” gained momentum.
There was a precedent in America in the 1770`s, when the American people took to arms to remove what they were no longer were willing to tolerate. Good for them, I`m all for “The will of the people”!
I have no idea who, or what Aaron Hernandez is.
I did say Northern and Southern and Southern Vietnam is more prosperous then Northern Vietnam.
I’m surprised no one has considered sending two F-22’s into the center of Ar-Raqqah to drop one Mk-77 each, only to then, after dropping them, rapidly accelerate and pull up in such a fashion that their jet blasts rotate in a cyclonic fashion on top of the two Mk-77 fireballs. Let the resulting mile-wide fire vortex rip through the de facto ISIS capital…
“No God condones terror”- President Obama
But burning of humans by humans because of one reason or the other, has been going on since the fall of human on this planet.
John Hartung and all. if the U.S. did not do what it did from 1941 on what would the world look like. I,m pretty sure a lot of people would be dead or living has slaves if it were no for the U.S. No we are not perfect, I may also point out that no one in the world can compare to the U.S. in the treatment of POW’s.
“ISIS is horrible but understandable.”
Kill yourself. I can’t believe you haven’t been fired yet.