What if your ethnic identity was being given away while the Western world participated in its demise, then celebrated with claims that a “diplomatic dispute” was being solved?
I shouldn’t have to explain the idea of basic human rights to a Western diplomat or politician, but welcome to my world, where I have to defend the existence of my ethnic group and demand the end of a policy aimed at driving it into oblivion.
After inexplicably having to explain to Kati Csaba, Canada’s anti-Macedonian ambassador to Macedonia, that forcibly changing a country and ethnic group’s name, identity, and history in order to appease its oppressors is the antithesis of human rights, I told her a human interest story in the hopes that it would appeal to her, well, human side. It was about one of my kids’ friends telling us that his ethnic group doesn’t get along with another ethnic group because of long-standing tensions between the two. He discussed how his parents taught him how “bad” the other group was. He then asked, “So who do you hate?” Our answer: “Nobody.”
But how do I tell my kids that a lot of people hate us? No suggestions from Kati were forthcoming, mostly because she is perpetuating this hatred.
We’re Macedonian, and just saying the name of our ethnic group evokes outrage from our oppressors. Yes, our existence causes outrage. Our country’s name is Macedonia. It always has been, even during hundreds of years of foreign occupation. But it is now being forcibly changed. And so is our ethnic identity.
So what should I tell my kids? How do I tell them that our ethnic group is being forcibly renamed and redefined? That our identity is being given away to our oppressors? That the history of our people is being rewritten to satisfy those who want to eradicate us? That our basic human rights are being violated in every way imaginable? And that Canada, the country of our birth, is celebrating and aiding in the eradication of the country of our blood?
Kati, what would you tell your kids if you were in our position?
Canada has continued to publicly support the forced renaming of Macedonia despite being fully aware of the brutal US-led tactics in renaming Macedonia, including physical detainment and intimidation of female MPs, threats against their families, imprisonment of dissenters, attacks and beatings by riot police, violations of the Macedonian constitution, parliamentary rules and criminal code, shutting down media outlets and social media access, and shockingly, much more.
But why? All to appease Greece, so it refrains from using its veto power against Macedonia’s NATO and EU membership bids.
Rather than discussing the Canadian-assisted eradication of my ethnic group, Kati Csaba chose to inform me that Canada will now “proudly recognize North Macedonia” instead of Macedonia (despite all the evidence presented to her, including details of meetings I’ve had with Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland and her foreign policy advisors). The forced name change instantly relegates our ethnic identity to “Northern Macedonian”.
So what is a Macedonian then? Three recent US/EU imposed treaties on Macedonia—the Prespa Agreement, ironically-named Friendship Agreement and the Law on Languages—give Macedonia’s history, identity and name to Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania. Partition of Macedonia once again, but this one with a modern twist.
In 1913, the entire region of Macedonia was divided among Serbia (now the independent Republic of Macedonia), Bulgaria, Greece, and later, Albania. Macedonians have been fighting attempts at eradication, forcible assimilation, and competing claims to our name since then. So how can Macedonia be Serbian, Bulgarian, Greek, and Albanian all at once? Macedonia is Macedonian. Political games and corruption cannot be permitted to erase an age-old nationality. Let’s not forget the irony too, that Greece outlawed the term “Macedonia” in 1913 and denied its existence until a dramatic propaganda switch in 1988, when it began a campaign of trying to deceive the world into believing that Macedonia belonged to them.
Put yourself in our shoes. What if your ethnic identity was being given away while the Western world participated in its demise, then celebrated with claims that a “diplomatic dispute” was being solved?
Look at one of a multitude of Pier 21 and Ellis Island documents from the early 1900s recognizing Macedonian immigrants to North America having a Macedonian nationality despite being under Turkish occupation. Now, at the stroke of a pen, our identity and history are being erased. My family came to Canada to escape persecution by Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, and Serbia. Their “crime”? Being Macedonian. Now Canada is aiding our oppressors in wiping out our ethnicity.
Kati, you told me that you are of Hungarian descent. So what if Hungary was forcibly renamed “West Hungary” and the definition of “Hungarian” was suddenly given to Romania? What if Hungarian history was being rewritten by a group of Romanians, as Macedonian history is being rewritten by a panel of Greek diplomats—as per Article 8(5) of the anti-Macedonian Prespa Agreement. What would you do if there was a 19-page document telling you that you and your ancestors suddenly have a new identity and that everything you ever knew about your ethnic group is now being changed?
Kati, we all deserve a response. And Macedonians deserve action. You are spreading hatred against an entire ethnic group, and you are a disgrace to Canada’s (former) reputation as a defender of human rights.
Bill Nicholov, President
Macedonian Human Rights Movement International
www.mhrmi.org
Well said!! As a Canadian, born and raised in this country, taught in school about freedom of speech, freedom of self-identification, I can’t believe the country is still run with imperialistic views.
Unfortunately Mr Nicholov is supporting one side of the story which is his own.
Unprepared reader can be puzzled by such “ victimization “ of North Macedonians. The real facts are : after Jugo Communists created this country in 1944-45, their rulers and “ scientists “ started to create ….their history. How can they do that ? Well is called stealing, just erase historical documents with reference to Bulgaria and Greece and fill it up … with Macedonian!!!
Documents of forgery are right there and are available to everyone.
Most importantly-many current politicians OPENLY admitted in front of the world ; “ We were stealing history from our neighbors “ Mr Zaev , or former Premier Georgievski revelation -We are World Champions to forging history!!!
Teach your kids to be honest and not believing in myths
Dr. Mario, Please tell how your fact discredits the other fact that a country is allowed to self govern. Do you know how Greece was created, for example? Their nationalism was invented through a history re-write and used as a weapon against the Ottoman Empire, by the Bavarian ruler Otto.
Macedonia as a modern country gained recognition during WW2 when Macedonian local partisans fought off occupying Nazi troops (do you remember who Bulgaria fought for?). After which Macedonia was recognized as a modern country within the United Allied Country of Yugoslavia.
That doesn’t matter though, the name of the country can honestly be something stupid like former british colony of canada, or former yugoslav republic of macedonia, the name doesn’t matter. The Nation does. Which is what this most recent attack is. Macedonia has survived as FYROM for years. It didn’t do anything to harm the Nation. However now, the powers that be (the EU, or should we say, the New Reich), require a more permanent solution to their strategic zone woes. Kill the past, to control the future.
Macedonians have existed since ancient times, as macedonians. See texts Strabo, a geographer during the roman empire, he refers to Maedonians, asn the Macedonian Nation, and the Macedonian Empire during the wars with Rome. The texts of Arrian, written about the conquests of Alexander, never once conflate Macedonians with the Helens. There may be an ancestral relation between Greeks and Macedonians, but that does not mean that the people of today are bound to be ruled under the nation of Greece. Macedonians today are not claiming the history or identity of any greek kings or territory, we are claiming that we are descendants of the people of ancient Macedonia.
Please do not use the words of Mr. Zaev, a president who was instilled into power by the force and manipulation of the EU enforced rules in Macedonia. The people protest, the people do not accept him. The enemies of Macedonia do.
That is your problem -your “ pseudo scientists “ use self fabricated data to create the history. No one in Academic world accept “ antiquisation “ theory of Mr Gruevski and company ( in exile for bribes and stealing!) I mean no one except … NM “ historichari”
Distortion of the facts , lying and “ paste and copy “ doesn’t work in the history. The truth always prevails.
You claimed to be victims , what about hateful rhetoric in your media against Greeks, Albanians , Bulgarians ? This is called hypocrisy.
Is not a forum to discuss further but to absorb your neighbors History and adapt for your use is shameful act.
You, quite literally make 0 factual claims, and worse yet, didn’t even try and look up any of the references I mentioned… Look up Strabo, look up the book Arian, look up old Ellis island documents, look up old news papers. None of the sources I mentioned come from pseudo scientist. If there is a language barrier than, I am sorry, if there is you truly are just an ignorant troll, refusing to reason. We can disagree, but still try and be constructive.
However you come back with generalized statements and baseless accusations. GIVE EXAMPLES of “hateful rhetoric”. Albanians are a fully recognized minority in Macedonia, they have elected officials, they have schools in Albanian, Albanian is a secondary language there. Greeks are Macedonia’s partners in trade, Macedonia has not placed embargoes on greek products, unlike the other way around. Greece has closed down the board after loosing a BASKETBALL game to Macedonia… We were travelling to Greece from Canada as a Macedonian Dance group and were harassed and almost turned away from the boarder, because the officer did not like it when we said we were Macedonian, not Canadian. So please scrub, stop with your hypocrisy.
Again your last line makes no sense. I GAVE YOU LITERAL SOURCES you could look up, you do not refute them, you do not try and provide your own, you simply state a nonsensical accusation.
I suggest you stop firing off your mouth, and go get some ammo before coming back to this fight… You seem to be shooting off blanks this whole time…
skopjans can’t even read ancient stones written in greek, this is physical evidence (just as euripides played in macedonian theaters in the greek language) that the inhabitants of macedonia proper were greek
ok, so we are going for that angle?
Greeks today can read the ancient stones because they were taught greek by the bavarian prince Otto. Please see the GREEK documentary regarding the creation of modern Greece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11SqikjePlA&list=RD11SqikjePlA&start_radio=1&fbclid=IwAR31-s58VX_8BwY1UZ-Fc3bU3Ycy1QPXqPFwiiq39pwiUMQfQkwiESVKqk0
That fact asside. Speaking a language does not constitute a national identity. It is true that the kingdoms of the Peloponnesian peninsula were culturally advance, and it is entirely possible similar languages were spoken, however this does not mean that the people were the same. For instance today Canada and the USA both speak English. Are they the same? They have the same origins… But today both have the autonomy to identify however they wish.
Today the people living in “the geographical region of Macedonia” choose to identify as Macedonians. Macedonians have lived there for thousands of years. Why is it that foreign powers get to dictate what those people get to call themselves?
Read old documents, and please nothing from modern greek, british, or other western sources. Read the old stuff, read Arian, read a complete history of greece by Herodotus. He is considered the father of history and his book does not mention Macedonia, until they conquered the kingdoms of Peloponnese. Think about that, in an ancient document, which is supposed to be a look back even further, Macedonia is not included until they occupied Greece. There is no mention of cities from ancient Macedonia, like Pella or Virginia, because they were not part of greece, so there was no need to speak of them… Strabo out right states that the northern most “greek country” was Thessaly, which is located to the south of Macedonia… There are countless sources of evidence in old texts…
Today Greece maintains an entire government bureau dedicated to pumping out propaganda…
So please take a step back, you are not arguing for the protection of Greek history, you are fighting to take away the history of Macedonians. We can be as neighbors instead of enemies.
Fantasies, lies and misinterpretations that what is typical for amateurs scientists of NM.
No clear evidence, superficial conclusions is characteristic of pseudo science. For example some of ancient authors wrote about Macedonians at lets say 3-4 centuries BC, often that quotation is used out of the time and the inhabitants of that land at that time and is automatically assigned to current citizens of NM?!? ( Like Strabo quotation ….)Sorry but that is not serious .
If you need more solid facts go to History of Ancient world , Medieval Europe ( Oxford, Harvard editions ) or more detailed books from renowned scholars such as Steven Runciman ‘ “ History of First Bulgarian Empire” and read it carefully. Nowhere is mentioned in the history of Europe -Macedonian Kingdom because doesn’t exist . Tzar Samuil of Bulgaria was target of History robbery, but similar to Aleksander the Great , that idea was debunked by serious scientists even in the present NM
Nothing absolutely nothing is mentioned in any history book about Macedonia as a state – period . Balkan History for 1000 yrs was dominated and played mainly by Byzantium and later by Bulgaria and Serbia.
Contemporary Macedonians are culturally, ethnographically , linguistically and most importantly GENETICALLY similar to Bulgarians .
Trust me on that one , I am MD working for 30 +yrs with genetics in medicine in NYC.
You are either blood type A,B, AB or O and that it is all . These genetics tests are very informative and confirm what already was professed by generations. In quotation below you will find more info on Genetics . Have a nice reading
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)
Dr Mario, you claim to be a “MD working for 30 +yrs with genetics in medicine in NYC” and yet you use wikipedia as a scientific proof? What a joke.
Search through the Canadian and American census statistics from before the division of Macedonia between the Balkan neighbours and you will find the “non-existent” Macedonians, as your brothers like to say. Just go through the Canadian census of 1911 and you, and the rest of the World can find out that out of circa 13 million residents of Canada, there were 813 people who claimed that they were born in Macedonia, of Macedonian ethnicity and nationality, and 582 of them, or 71.5 % spoke the Macedonian language.
Now, tell me how is it possible for all that, when apparently the Macedonian people and language were not “invented” for another 30 years?
Macedonian treasonous “leaders”, who by the way were lavishly paid by the West, can say anything they want now, but the facts remain the same. Macedonians have and will always exist, except in your Nazi thick heads.
So then you tell me why majority of Macedonians at the end of XIX and beginning of XX century including most notable revolutionary had Bulgarian Identity??? Just don’t use funny explanations like “ they were forced to do so” Wilkipedia quote serious and proven Genetics study , if you don’t believe me go ahead and order your genetic test and will see results similar to the one published. I am Bulgarian American my Great Grandfather was one of the closest friend to our and hope your national hero Gotze Delcev -memory eternal . My Genetics test showed the same pattern.
The topic of the discussion was that is easy to see the straw in the eyes of others but not seeing the piece of wood in yours .
Author is blaming the West , Politicians,Ambassadors and etc , what about the insulting behavior of his compatriots burning flags of the neighbors , derogatory epithets towards Greeks, Albanians , Bulgarians???
Anciant Macedonians have used helenic language and non of them have been of slavic origin!!!! Fact proven from many, many ancient authors and philosophers. Current North macedonians are of slavic origin and their language is slavic along with the majority of Serbs and Bulgarians. I personally wish I had royal British ancestry! But I am not! And if I claim I have, I would be suffering from schizophrenia. And this is exactly what is happening now with all these Serbo-Bulgarian people in N Macedonia who claim they have ancien macedonian ancestry.
How on earth you claim to have relation with ancient Macedonia when the whole world knows you came in this land on the 7th c. AD? As conquerors? Any Greek from Macedonia region can claim to be Macedonian, as any Bulgarian from Pirin region and not only you. But you are now a citizen of North Macedonia, because this is where you live. In the northern part of the wider former geographical region of Macedonia, without any relation to ancient Macedonia. Full stop.
I’m so tired of having to defend my origin to ignorant and racist people. I’m Macedonian. Who gives you the right to decide who I am? Have you ever heard of human rights and peoples right to self determination? No, I wouldn’t think so because if you did then you wouldn’t argue the way you do. History is history, it all depends on who wrote it and when it was written and why. I want to live my life without having to explain why I call myself Macedonian all the time. We are Macedonians and nothing else. Just dea with it! Long live Macedonia ?? and the Macedonians!
Ahahhaha cute misguided nationalists from both sides that are quoting “scientific” sources, yet fail to read even the sources they are quoting.
Neither the Macedonian Slavs, nor the Greek’s Helens have anything to do (genetically) with the Ancient Macedonian race. Slavs came to this region about 1000 years laters, and the Helens were subjugated and served the Ancient Mcd nation.
N.Macedonia changed it’s name to get out of an irational political dispute and move on with it’s integration. The small ex-Yugoslovenian country had next to 0 negotiating power internationally and it was an obvious choice to move all of the things Greece was blocking with a simple change of nomenclature. After all, it still has Macedonia in the name, so I don’t really understand what the problem is even if you are a hard-core Patriot (esp. looking at all of the foreign money entering the country cus of a simple “North”)?
Greece’s interests in this are purely political, as the country is riddled with nationalistic agenda that troubled every government that follows (the people are a bit old-fashioned on the topic .. it is what it is). The funniest bit in all of this, is that the nationalists weren’t even happy with the “Northern” deal and are still fuming, while it’s North neighbor got what it wanted (apart from it’s own local salty nationalists). Tbh, for crap like this, I wish all the people that care about these kinds of things to just meet up on a field and fight each other bareknuckled and whoever wins – wins. After all, about 50% of both the countries’ populations don’t give a shiz about the despute whatsoever.
Furthermore, the text is lying when it claims that they changed or lost their identity, as according to the Prespa agreement, the language and nationality are still called ‘Macedonian’ (NOT NORTH MACEDONIAN) – and the N bit is generally for international (erga omnes) use – so get your facts in order Mr.Sowing Discord Internationally from my position of priveledge.
@Zoroaster Finally a level headed individual…
I could honestly care less about ancestry, it’s just the crux of the opposing debate, so I read up on some stuff…
I have no issue with the name change either, however, Macedonia already did that once, under the same pretense. Remember before North, it was FYRO… And nothing changed.
I think about the formation of Israel, the Jewish people claimed that the land was theirs due to heritage. Similar things could befall Macedonia if Macedonians (as an ethnicity) are wiped out. Then what is to stop further claiming of land. I know Albania has a “Greater Albania” plan… It would be hard to fight against an Annex if the Native population is Albanian, and “Other”…
For me I just wish that Macedonia was given the right to self govern, without all the out side political pressures.
Descentants of Ancient Macedonians? Come on my friend give me a break. What possible relationship can you have with Ancient Macedonians? Its was the 7th century A.C when you came from the North to the Greek territories. Alexander is considered a Greek King not a Slav King. Macedonians participated in the Ancient Olympics. Funny Fact? Only Greeks cpuld participate. Any doubt was dropped when Alexander I proved to the Hellanodike(Greek Judges) that he and his People comes from the Kingdom of Argos, Pelloponisos.
Of course they reffere to a Macedonian Empire. As they reffere to Athenian dominion and Athenian Golden Age. The Term Greek and Greece was used only when all Greeks had to face a common enemy.
“Youths of the Pellaians and of the Macedonians and of the Hellenic Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians… and of all the Hellenic peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for as Greeks we should not be slaves to barbarians.”
And you still think tha he didnt consinder himself Greek?
I’m so tired of having to defend my origin to ignorant and racist people. I’m Macedonian. Who gives you the right to decide who I am? Have you ever heard of human rights and peoples right to self determination? No, I wouldn’t think so because if you did then you wouldn’t argue the way you do. History is history, it all depends on who wrote it and when it was written and why. I want to live my life without having to explain why I call myself Macedonian all the time. We are Macedonians and nothing else. Just deal with it! Long live Macedonia ?? and the Macedonians!
Lisa you are free to feel whoever you like Alien, African, Singaporean and etc . Just Do Nor Steal History!!!!
Thankfully politicians in NM came to the truth and DECLARED In front of the World: “We were stealing the history from our neighbors
Oh…. Lisa, darling! Feel free to call yourself Macedon. No issue with that. Call your language macedonian. But please don’t steal history and say alex the great is your ancestor. Please don’t say tsar Samuil and all others after him have been Macedonians. Just have to realise that your country’s history starts in the year of 1945.
Dr Mario, Are you Greek by any chance? or perhaps paid to spit out pathetic nonsense by a Greek?
Can people please stop conflating language with ethnicity. Speaking the same language does not make the people the same.
Dr. Mario… Again, no sources cited. Sorry. Wikipedia doesnt count, and Mr. Steven Runciman born 1903… So he was born 70 years after the history re write by Otto…
Instead of actually finding errors in my sources you simply dismiss them with no solid reasoning… Again this is not supposed to be a mud slinging contest, I was honestly hoping to get some kind of dialog going…
But again “Doctor” you seem to have issues with providing a sold understanding of critical reasoning…
My god this chat is litterally full of people just “No, You’re wrong”…
This is pathetic, and yet still no one has provided proof against my logic, so peace out, hopefully all the neigh sayers either gain some common sense, or at least provide a sensible argument.
@ Vasilis – Ok… and…? Alexander was from Macedonia, so let say hypothetically he was greek. Thousands of years later people in Macedonia want to self govern, why must we adhere to ancient rule?
Your argument that we are slaves does not hold much weight. The macedonians of ancient times did not simply vanish. There was a settlement of slavs into the Macedonian kingdom. The people interbred and did not get the lessons of ancient greek language from Otto the Bavarian…
Also, just an FYI, Alexander was initially denied a place in the games… Because he was Macedonian. The Initial ruling was no. Then he proved proof that he had greek heritage, meaning, his 4th cousin twice removed on his great grandmothers side was greek… Also he was the ruler of the Greek territories, they really can’t say no to him, he had quite the temper.
All that said and done, Go back to the 1700’s the US and Canada were british people. 200 years later a solid national identity and distinct people formed. In a similar Greeks and Macedonians had a similar ancestry, but the Macedonians were viewed as barbarians, and were excluded by the greeks. Today, descendants of those macedonians, want the right to rule over their own tiny piece of land. Simple.
https://greece.greekreporter.com/2019/09/24/the-priceless-ancient-treasures-of-dion-macedonia/. In Greece The rest are Slavs. Period!
Totally agree
Totally agree to Dr Mario.
@Kalin, Which of Dr. Marios comments to you agree with in particular? If you actually read the back and fourth, he has provided ZERO evidence, or supported his argument… But I guess you believe blindly… Try and broaden your horizons…
@Tina, Sorry sweetheart that is not how discussions go…
But your punctuation is impeccable… Please come back with actual evidence, or an article that can’t be disproven by a 5 year old…
I’ll make this quick.
Macedonians lived on the same region. Macedonians conquered their neighbors. Macedonians built things where they were. The borders since ancient times have shifted. So today there are Macedonian relics found in Modern day Greece…
Sorry to be glib, but please learn to defend your position…
Dear Kristijan, you wrote:”Can people please stop conflating language with ethnicity. Speaking the same language does not make the people the same”
No, we will continue to relate language and the origin of it with the people who speak it. Bulgarian and nowadays macedonian languages were the same until 1945 when a few things were changed to make it look different to the order of the Communists. There was no mention in any historical sources of macedonian etnicity in all those years from the fall of the Ancient Macedonian Kingdom until more recent history in the 19th century. There was Bulgarian, Serbian, Byzantinian, but no Macedonian. The geographical place Macedonia was ruled by Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs and Ottomans throughout these years. Macedonian Dumm heads started thinking of macedonian nation only after Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria were liberated from the Ottomans, but the geographical region of Macedonia left under the Ottoman rule. Uprisings against Ottoman rule of many etnic Bulgarians and less Serbs were called “macedonian” only because it was happening in the geographical region of Macedonia. Some macedonian Dumm heads hiked that wave and claimed new country, new etnicity new language fighting for liberation against the Ottomans. Ottomans wanted to keep it within their empire as long as possible, because the region of Macedonia has many muslims living there. That’s the truth! Get over it and live a normal live without absurd claims.
So, Firstly Philip, Nice Macedonian Name BTW…
Second. To dismantle your languge claim: English muthafukka, do you speak it?? (lol I had to say it)…
Today, many countries speak English, does that make them the same people? No, I am a proud Canadian as well as Macedonian, I do not want to be called an American. That is not correct. So very simply put, people speaking the same language does not mean they are the same.
Also, Before Otto, the residents of modern day greece spoke albanian, does that make them albanian? Simple Reference (though there are papers which reach the same conclusion): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11SqikjePlA&list=RD11SqikjePlA&start_radio=1&fbclid=IwAR31-s58VX_8BwY1UZ-Fc3bU3Ycy1QPXqPFwiiq39pwiUMQfQkwiESVKqk0
Third Macedonia – A geographical region with no people associated to it…
Why is that the entirity of Greece is comprised of multiple regions, and post 1832 the people of every different region referred to themselves as Greeks, but solely the Macedonians held on? Why is it that Macedonians were “barbarians”. Why is it that Alexander was initially denied competing in the Olympic Games until he proved some kind of greek blood relation. So generally we can conclude that Macedonians existed to the north of Greece, and they were different enough to discriminate against. So these people existed there, then came a slavic invasion… They settled in great numbers there… The people intermingled, and even :O had sex… They bread and eventually the dominant language and culture to emerge was the slavic. Does that remove the fact that the people there are still descendants of Macedonia? Consider a modern example of England… or London more specifically. There are more and more Indian people moving into London. They live there, they breed there. 100 years down the road (if the level of immigration keeps up), the native population may look and speak indian. But does that change the fact that their forefathers were English? I would say no, it doesn’t.
Fourth: Macedonian Nationality only happened after they were liberated from the Ottoman Empire…
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85066387/1903-08-16/ed-1/seq-24/ – Read under Petroff hopes for Peace… The Bulgarian prime minister placed the revolutions of 1903, against the Ottomans on MACEDONIANS, and the Macedonian National movement…
Ellis Island immigration document:https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9TQ-XVM8?i=255&cc=1368704&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AJJVT-H44
Look at Risto Koleff _ From Macedonia, Nationality Macedonian… Immigration date 1911. There are more, but I just like to give the one… Oh Fun Fact, if you look at that same document there is a man from Macedonia, but Nationality is bulgarian… In case you want to make a case that they just copied the country onto the Nationality… Also proving that Yes many different people lived on the Land known as Macedonia, and some of them were Duh Duh DUUUUUUhhhHHH!!! Macedonians…
So yea, please feel free to provide any rebuttals…
Sorry, I missed this comment, with the flood of the others…
So… There were Bulgarians that lived in Macedonia… Simple as that man… See the Ellis Ilsand Immigration Document: document:https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9TQ-XVM8?i=255&cc=1368704&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AJJVT-H44 As you can see there is a man on this document who is From Country: Macedonian, Nationality: Bulgarian. There is also another man, from Country: Macedonia, Nationality: Macedonian…
I chose this document because it has both Macedonians and Bulgarians on the same page. There are more examples of Nationality: Macedonian.
I too was very close with my Great Grandfather He was born in 1899 and died in 2000. He lived through the ENTIRE 19th century… His stories were tragic. Born and raised in a tiny village on the boarder between Macedonia (current) Greece and Albania. The rulers changed hands many times there. He and his siblings and parents, along with other people fom the village would be beaten and even arrested (adults) who held on to their Macedonian nationality. So lets not go too far into anecdotes, because it’s simply not scientific.
As for genetics… What can I say I am not a pro at social demographics and genetic flow… But one thing I do know, is that ANY people who live together will share DNA. Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia… The people in these regions do not sit in one place. There is a 99.99% probability that there are people in every modern country, which can trace their DNA to an ancient one…
I honestly don’t know much about Goce Delcev. A Bulgarian I was having a civil discussion with showed me a quote from one of the revolutionary at the time of Delcev. I did say that Delcev was Bulgarian, but then went on to say that he fought for Bulgarians AND Macedonians under Ottoman Rule.
The Bulgarian government did try to coopt the Macedonian Movement back in the early 1900’s, but as you can read, there was still distinct Macedonian presence and influence in the area: (again an old British Newspaper)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/88856063?searchTerm=Boris+sarafoff++++++++++++&searchLimits&fbclid=IwAR2sNsFhAQaeEnt4MeGkgJMINzqlx4LnCIEO-W97SEsCkqSpkRjMrV_-7Pk
Sorry, I missed this comment, with the flood of the others…
So… There were Bulgarians that lived in Macedonia… Simple as that man… See the Ellis Ilsand Immigration Document: document:https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9TQ-XVM8?i=255&cc=1368704&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AJJVT-H44 As you can see there is a man on this document who is From Country: Macedonian, Nationality: Bulgarian. There is also another man, from Country: Macedonia, Nationality: Macedonian…
I chose this document because it has both Macedonians and Bulgarians on the same page. There are more examples of Nationality: Macedonian.
I too was very close with my Great Grandfather He was born in 1899 and died in 2000. He lived through the ENTIRE 19th century… His stories were tragic. Born and raised in a tiny village on the boarder between Macedonia (current) Greece and Albania. The rulers changed hands many times there. He and his siblings and parents, along with other people fom the village would be beaten and even arrested (adults) who held on to their Macedonian nationality. So lets not go too far into anecdotes, because it’s simply not scientific.
As for genetics… What can I say I am not a pro at social demographics and genetic flow… But one thing I do know, is that ANY people who live together will share DNA. Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia… The people in these regions do not sit in one place. There is a 99.99% probability that there are people in every modern country, which can trace their DNA to an ancient one…
I honestly don’t know much about Goce Delcev. A Bulgarian I was having a civil discussion with showed me a quote from one of the revolutionary at the time of Delcev. I did say that Delcev was Bulgarian, but then went on to say that he fought for Bulgarians AND Macedonians under Ottoman Rule.
The Bulgarian government did try to coopt the Macedonian Movement back in the early 1900’s, but as you can read, there was still distinct Macedonian presence and influence in the area: (again an old British Newspaper)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/88856063?searchTerm=Boris+sarafoff++++++++++++&searchLimits&fbclid=IwAR2sNsFhAQaeEnt4MeGkgJMINzqlx4LnCIEO-W97SEsCkqSpkRjMrV_-7Pk
Honestly, you are so full of bull****. Every single pro-Macedonian post here is orderly, relatively back with some kind of source or reference and with peaceful attitude and understanding. You behave like a troll that doesnt know what he is talking about and has read a wiki page about this century long dispute in 5 minutes and thinks he is the upmost authority on the subject.
Just go somewhere else and spew your hateful garbage there.
*My previous post got cut out. The first sentence was addressing Dr.Mario and his Bulgarian and Greek counterparts.
Wow I was just about to praise participants in discussion for civilized manners and then Mr Goran showed attitude…
To summarize my encounters with NMs
1.They always stick on invented stories and unproven data. Something heard from local pub , Internet , YouTube crap videos and etc
2. When they are confronted with facts which are every where in scholarly written books and documents . Reaction is either ignoring or continuous logorrhea running in circles
3. Most of the times disputes finished with foul language , cursing . Honestly never heard curses with such a vulgarity.
(Considering I served in military with a lot of outcasts in Bulgaria , and after working for 30 yrs in inner city of New York )
Peace
“ Macedonia is geographic category” Vance Mihailov
PS. Someone ask about myself . I am Bulgarian American Doctor proud to be great grandson of one of the closest friend and associate of the Bulgarian National Hero Gotze Delcev
I kind of take issue with your points…
I have done nothing but provide you with sources which I found online, and only resorted to anecdotal when you brought up your great grandfather (so I brought up mine).
I did not see your “facts” as valid, as you state sources with a high probability of bias. I sent you a british news article, if anything the brits who bombed macedonian villages, do NOT favor us, so I feel that is a fair source. In that vary article, it was outlined how the Bulgarian government attempted to supplant the leaders and take over Macedonia after it was freed.
Oh, come now, we have all had bad experiences when speaking about this topic, online and in person… You should not judge based on that… I have heard my fair share of insults… But really nothing compares to the 10 year olds playing fortnight online…
Macedonia is a geographic territory… And again admittedly by documents I linked to, a country, and also, by documents I soured to you, a Nationality.
And you absolutely should be proud to be your self! I am proud to be me too… I am proud to have had a member of a Bulgarian Folk dance group stay at my apartment waaaaaaay back when I used to live in Macedonia… He was very pleasent.
Dear Kristijan,
You need to look at your tittatatta language and pay attention on what you are writing as I have never seen bigger concentration of typos in a post ever. To your claim about the language! 70-80 years ago when your country was created, 95%of those speaking english were of a british descent(no matter where in the world were they) . It was the same with the Bulgarian and the Serbian and the Greek language speakers and you know that. Your claim that the inhabitants of Greece were speaking albanian before the Ottoman rule is making me laugh and proves you are making up a lot of things!! Your compatriots from N. Macedonia are saying there is no such a person like serbo macedon or bulgaro macedon, but now we found out there is canado macedon(be proud of yourself) As I said in my previous post macedon dumm heads started thinking about their nation only late 19th century. Give me one evidence of a macedonian etnicity from the fall of ancient macedonia until 19th century please.
Life’s too short to edit for typos lol… And didn’t mean to offend with the quote, it was from pulp fiction, I couldn’t let the opportunity pass.
So, you didn’t watch the greek documentary I posted to you? I am not pulling those things from thin air, it would ruin any credibility I have. As I provided the documentary to you, you should watch it, and then come back with a rebuttal. That is how these types of conversations work. There are countries all over the world which speak english, french, spanish, etc. It does not make those people English, French, Spanish, etc… It’s simply cultural influence… So yea…
Regarding the No Macedonian Identity, again, I provided a link from documents from Ellis island, that show people Identifying as Macedonian. I do not have anything else right now, on hand, but I will try and dig up some more.
I’d like to point out again, I provided you with sources of my reasoning, and you came back with simple “No, your a dum head” arguments… I hope you realize that the general rule is, if you can’t refute a piece of evidence, then you simply denying it out right makes you look kinda like what you are accusing me of… You know, being a dum head…
Oh, and side note, you mentioned that Macedonia as a country was created 70 years ago… That’s kind of false… It was created as a country in 1990, I believe… The people however have been around for a few millennia… Greece as a modern country (again watch the documentary, it’s in greek, you would be able to understand it. I read the subtitles), was created in the 1830’s by the Good ol’ Bavarian’s…
Cheers dude… Feel free to try again…
Oh, and one last thing what the heck did you mean by this sentence: “Your compatriots from N. Macedonia are saying there is no such a person like serbo macedonian or bulgaro macedonian, but now we found out there is canado macedonian(be proud of yourself)” I honestly don’t quite understand. Also note I fixed the spelling in this quote, it is MacedonIAN… just an FYI..
Dear Kristijan,
I asked you to provide evidence of macedonian etnicity from the fall of the ancient macedonian kingdom to the 19th century. Go to your beloved Britts and ask them, open their ancient encycopedia Brittanica and please find the evidence of a macedonian etnicity there or anywhere in an official britt document from the time before 19th century. You will find nothing. Ask them the same for Bulgarian, Greek, Serb etnicity and you will find lots of evidence. You have got quite a task now, so get going quick and I will check on your progress later.
Dude Again your doing it wrong… I am not claiming to be historian, I am not a genius, ask my wife lol… I provided you some evidence, you did not refute said evidence. Documents that talk about nationality are hard to come by from those times… But at least there is evidence of Macedonians in the 1800’s…
As for the encyclopedia Britannica… Please see attached reference: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Philip-II-king-of-Macedonia#ref274202
There is not a 100% consensus about the history. But as I said I do not like to use references pre 1830, because of the history re-write… Also, you do know that Prince Phillip (dude who ran over a person with his car, 0 repercussions, also married to the queen), is GREEK, ie, There is an alliance between Greece and Britain… After the WWII Napkin agreement, between Stalin and Churchill, Greece was given to Britain, and the marriage consolidated that. So it is in their interest to keep up the Greek historical facade…
So, did you WATCH THE DOCUMENTARY YET? I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT… Picture like I am speaking really slowly… because it seems you don’t listen.
Hi Phillip, I am having trouble finding documentation pre 1800’s, there are a lot of Macedonian sources, but I do not want to use those, because they would be considered bias…
I ran across a nice little piece, because you like to bring up Macedonian Politicians who renounce their own country, I thought I’d post this one, which is a Greek official addressing Greek parliament, about the “Grecification” of Macedonia.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=366794170772282
I understand that this isn’t 100% proof, but my point is that you should not view everything as black and white, there are differing opinions on both sides…
John can you please define who are the “Canadians “
I never knew that there was a place called Greece with defined borders at the ancient times you refer to
Can you please confirm that there was and where they should be
We’re Epirotes Thessalian Arcadians and so on different states ethnic groups
Or you’re happy to pick and choose
It is true you feel like Macedonians, but please look in the future, not in the history. There, the Greeks are all-mighty. And please stop explain yourself with the neighbouring nations. That is so Bulgarian.
Phillip and Dr Mario please read this
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-47258809 and
https://minorityrights.org/minorities/macedonians-3/
It will help you understand the article.
And it seems that the truth is slowly coming out.
Bruh in Turkey thare are documents where everything is said as it is but the Greek don’t wanna and are not agreeing to releasing those documents for the whole world to see and read them bc it just gonna show that they and the Bulgarians are the ones stealing Macedonia’s history
Book is already published author is Prof D Georgiev one of the participants in commission which is supposed to objectively look at Bulgarian North Macedonia history disputes .
It is called Turkish Archives for Liberty movements in Balkans .
Similar to Macedonias usual methods of distorting the facts , author shamelessly intentionally omitted passages where Bulgarian rebels, komitadji and etc are mentioned and just writing instead : rebels, peasants and etc. He probably thought that there is no historians who speak Turkish. Of courses there are and EDITING was noted ,
Again typical for NM “ istorichari” , Do you want more and more examples?
Brothers Miladinovi wrote collection of songs and published in Zagreb as “ Bulgarian Folk Songs “ in mid XIX century.
Guess how is popularized the book in Macedonia??? Of course just simply as “ Folk Songs” without original Bulgarian.
One of many , many examples of forgery, sorry to inform you.
To me, the real issue is that Macedonians are doing something that ethnic Athenians or Spartans or any other derivative of the over encompassing Greek label that was assigned thousands of years ago, have not chosen to do. As a Canadian, I could be called North American, but know that I am not Mexican or American. Now, there could be an argument that as such Macedonians could be called Greek, but the two have parted ways, they can both be considered European but Macedon has outgrown it’s Greek ties in history. An equally confusing and angering debate could be starts around Yugoslavia, Poland, Hungary etc. All countries with a volatile history. “Especially in the 1900s” I don’t have to read any of your sources, or read any of my own to come to this conclusion. And as a human, at any time I could “burn the flag in effigy” so to speak and disassociate myself with my state.
The long and short of it is that Greece who is financially in shambles “or at least recently was”, is probably worried that other ethnicities might wish to follow suit. Having one group defy them so openly is cause for concern , and rallying behind a common goal keeps over all nationalism appeased. As for North Macedonia. Just ignore the N, at least your country isnt called French Indo-China.
Hi, I am done with this convo man… You have yet to address any of the information that I presented you. I have been polite (as much as I could be at least), and have tried to have a conversation with you…
Let me quickly dismantlement what you claim here “Dr.” Mario.
Do you know what ad homonyms are? You paint the entire macedonian group as liars who’s only purpose is to steal bulgarian history. We are disputing far more important issues, of current issues facing an entire country.
Second You DO NOT provide sources to ANYTHING YOU SAY. I googled Prof D Georgiev, and got nothing of value. Also, if he is Bulgarian professor, AND you claim that he is un bias? Really, do you know what Bias means?
And lastly, all of the last few points you seem to make are again, without any kind of source, and even worse even if you did have them would be completely anecdotal incidences. Things that you heard in passing, or saw on the internet at some point…
And this is where my politeness is up. You call your self a doctor, but you cannot put together a cohesive sentence, let alone an actual argument that will stand up to scrutiny. I truly hope that you do not treat humans… They would probably get better care at a Veterinary…
Peace, dude, I wish you a good life.
Sorry Mr Petrovski, if I have offended you .
Just responded to a biased claims, and as I said the facts are there . The discussion doesn’t allow for more information, which I can provide and demonstrated the things which unfortunately are very well known, namely revisions of the history done in Communist Yugoslavia . For example do quick search of Borthers Miladinov original book Bulgarian Folk Songs published in Zagreb XIX century and you will find numerous images . Then go to Macedonian print and you will see the difference…
You mentioned when challenged before that you are not historian and that tells a lot .
I did not insult you and tried to keep the good tone .
I am content that multiple opinions shared in the comments following my response to the article served the purpose which I stated before .i.e there is another part of the story !Go back and read my first comment which started conversation.
Prof Dragi Georgiev is The Chief of North Macedonian commission which participate in talks between NM and Bulgaria historical disputes . I mentioned his book based on Turkish archives , where was incorrect representation of the facts . If you are interested can send you photos showing that.( there is no bias here )
Finally – you became very angry and attacking my personality. Similar to you I am not historian but strongly believe that the truth cannot be hidden or corrupted .
I have a lot of patients from all over the world including NM, Serbia,Greece. I loved them , we have very nice relationship and bonds. I have tried sincerely to help them to the best of my knowledge for 30 + yrs.
Take care
Ps Love the story of your Grandfather
wow……………………………………………………………………………………………..
First off its shameful how divided peoples form eastern europe are.
Second
Funny how, Bulgaria’s the only country to not join the Great Party fun that was YUGOslavia, and the Balkan wars!
Side note*** if you read history, you can see that one of Bulgarias old Capitals was OHRID.
From what i understand, Macedonia is a region, and
uprising where brutally crushed from any peoples that tried in the ottoman empire,
once countries started to be liberated (Romania, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Macedonia) literary a war broke out all against Bulgaria except for Macedonia,
Fact is Bulgarian, at the end of the Day was way to Big to be left as a country by the Western powers, manly Britain, who wrote and rewrote treaties.
Eastern Rumelia, and lower Bulgaria were united after the liberation from Ottoman with 90% of present day macedonia, not all at once but one at a time. Then Serbia, Romania, Greece, all attacked Greater Bulgaria and with heavy losses and help from Western powers help make a new treaty which divided Macedonia to greece, serbia, bulgaria. Bulgarias foreign ruler at the time Prince Ferdenand, said f this and had us try and unite macedonia region with Lower Bulgaria and eastern Rumelia.
Sad, especially with the fact Millions and millions of Macedionans moved to Bulgaria after this wars so that they don’t get serbianized or attacked from Greece,
If you look up Macedionian Language it is under Bulgarian as a dilaect of Bulgarian, hence why after Bulgaria join the EU, thousand and thousand of NM claimed heritage.
smh…..
the newly formed country’s name is north macedonia, just as romans named this territory macedonia prima, their inhabitants are mostly of slavic descent, that’s what the world knows; as for the nationality of these macedonians it reflects as slavs. prespa agreement. end of the story.
CORRECTION FOR PREVIOUS STATEMENT: the newly formed country’s name is north macedonia, just as romans named this territory Macedonia Secunda or Salutaris, its inhabitants are mostly of slavic descent, that’s what the world knows; as for the nationality of these macedonians it reflects as slavs. prespa agreement. end of the story.
How sad that people even to this day are denying a whole country their right to their Human Rights and existence. Macedonia is only Macedonia and it’s people are Macedonians and nothing else. Like in any other country there are other nationalities as well of course. No other country has the right to rename another country. I have great faith that Macedonia and its people will endure this as well as they have done it in the past. Long live Macedonia ??