Justice for the Palestinian people, however long deferred, remains the defining moral prism by which to assess the shifting balance between achieving global justice and bowing to the whims of geopolitics at the UN and elsewhere.
There are many reasons for persons with very different worldviews to feel disillusioned by, if not angry at, the United Nations. These negative feelings arise usually because the UN stands idly by the sidelines while terrible national and human tragedies unfold as the world media visually narrates horrific events in real time.
At other times, the hostile feelings toward the UN arise because the Organization is seen as a plaything of geopolitics, as bowing to crude leverage wielded by major funding governments, and in the process violating the letter and spirit of the UN Charter.
Such behavior undermines the UN’s constitutional foundations and casts doubt on the central claim that the Organization is dedicated to the cause of war prevention.
No people have more reason to be disappointed with the UN, international law, and the precepts of international morality than do the people of Palestine. From the moment the UN was established up until the present moment, the Palestinians have been victimized either by the use of the UN to pursue geopolitical goals or by the inability of the UN to implement its own decisions and assessments that are responsive to Palestinian grievances or supportive of Palestinian aspirations.
Obviously, there is present a world order puzzle that needs solving. Many believe, especially here in the United States, that it is Israel that is the victim of UN bashing and bias, being singled out at the UN for continuous censure and criticism, and it is the Palestinians that have over the years received aid and comfort in the halls of the UN for their contentions, however inflammatory.
For our dualistic Western minds, incapable of reconciling opposites, something must be wrong. It seems impossible for both the Palestinians and Israelis to be both victimized at the UN.
Yet this is precisely the case.
The Palestinians are victimized because the UN doesn’t mean what is says—at least not on the plane of action.
The UN gives the Palestinians the pabulum of words, while refraining from the reality of deeds, which over time gives rise to resentment and cynicism summarized by the sentiment: “what good are words, if nothing happens, and the situation on the ground even deteriorates.”
At the same time, partly in reaction to this sense of impotence when it comes to imposing its views effectively on behavior, the UN slaps, sometimes strongly, the defiant Israelis. And the Israelis, never above playing the anti-Semitic card, keep telling the world that they are singled out for bashing even though their wrongs are far less bad than that of others.
Of course, never far in the background is the weight of geopolitics, with the United States wielding a punitive stick on Israel’s behalf.
History needs to be taken into account in sifting through the complexities of argument and counter-argument carried on now for decades about the performance of the UN in relation to Palestinians and Israelis.
With respect to the geopolitical explanation of Palestinian disillusionment, the UN already in 1946 accepted the responsibility to supersede the United Kingdom—which had been administering Palestine on behalf of the international community since the fall of the Ottoman Empire after World War I—in working out a solution on behalf of the two peoples.
Yet instead of consulting the resident population of Palestine on its wishes with respect to the implementation of the right of self-determination, the UN on its own initiative proposed an Orientalizing solution that gave Israel 55% of Palestine despite less than 33% of the population being Jewish.
This demographic disparity existed despite several decades of Jewish immigration spurred by energetic Zionist efforts around the world as well as by the British, eager for strategic reasons of their own to carry out the Balfour pledge of 1917.
Jewish immigration was also greatly encouraged by the rise of Nazism, which intensified the search for a sanctuary that could protect Jews, especially those fleeing Hitler’s Germany.
Then to compound this imposition of a settler colonialist outcome, repugnant from the outset to the majority Arab population, the UN proceeded in 1948 to accept Israel as a member of the UN without first making obligatory provision to ensure an equitable future for the Palestinian people.
This flawed UN response to the end of the British mandate has been compounded by years of Israeli expansionism, especially since 1967. Such an internationally tilted outcome reflected intense liberal guilt toward Jews in the aftermath of the Holocaust combined with the skill and tactics of the Zionist movement in influencing the Jewish diaspora as well as government policy in Europe and North America.
It was an early demonstration of geopolitics triumphing over international law and global justice within the UN.
It should not be forgotten that the UN was established in ways that gave leading states a geopolitical comfort zone, more familiarly known as ‘the veto,’ a blunt instrument for opting out of responsibilities, and useful to protect friends and batter enemies.
Turning to the impotence of the UN when it comes to its resolutions and decisions that encounter geopolitical resistance, the pattern has been evident all along. After the outcome of the 1967 War, the international community by way of the UN acquiesced with hardly a whimper to the extension of Israeli territorial claims from 55% to 78% of mandate Palestine.
Ever since, this enlargement of Israeli territorial expectations has formed the basis for the two-state consensus, and was even accepted by the Palestinians as the realistic territorial baseline for a compromise solution.
Beyond this central issue of territorial allocation, the UN General Assembly affirmed the right of return of Palestinians forced to leave their homes in the 1947-48 War in General Assembly Resolution 194, and a second wave dispossessed in the 1967 War. The resolution has been pointedly rejected by Israel without any adverse consequences.
In similar fashion, the expansion and annexation of Jerusalem has been strongly condemned, most canonically, by the UN Security Council in Resolution 478 (1980), a unanimous vote except for the U.S. abstention.
Finally, despite this, and the periodic Security Council denunciations of Israeli settlements on occupied Palestine territory, Israel has continued year upon year to build and increase the settler population.
Against this background, it is to be expected that the Palestinians feel that having their rights affirmed at the UN is a worthless exercise, if not a feeble way to obscure UN impotence, given that the Palestinian ordeal has worsened year after year, decade after decade.
And yet, despite all this, the Jerusalem resolution of last December (passed by a vote of 128-9 with 35 abstentions and 21 absences) repudiating the Trump initiative is significant, partly because symbols are of great, if indirect, importance in international life.
Symbolic victories at the UN do on occasion have subtle, yet real, behavioral impacts.
The UN for all its weaknesses has long been the primary source for authoritative determinations of the legitimacy and illegitimacy of internationally recognized claims and grievances. This resolution is illustrative, supported by every important country in the world including the closest allies of the United States, with the symbolic and unequivocal rejection of the Trump diplomatic gesture of recognition being clear and consequential.
The Jerusalem resolution seems likely to produce a series of consequences: it greatly weakens, if not terminates, the central role that the United States has played as the only recognized third party mediator between Israelis and Palestinians, thereby creating an opportunity for the EU and individual European states to fill the diplomatic vacuum that seems to have formed.
Besides this, demonstrations around the world opposing the U.S. recognition initiative are translating support throughout the world for the Palestinian global solidarity movement that is likely to be expressed in several ways, especially by way of a more robust Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) Campaign.
And at least for the moment, the Palestinian Authority, and its leadership, has moved away from adopting a quasi-collaborative stance in its relations with Israel, insisting that Trump’s move caused a damaging rupture.
In effect, if diplomacy is to go forward in the future, it will have to proceed under new auspices, possibly Europe, maybe even China or the UN.
Such radical expectations, while expressing a welcome refusal to be coopted by the Tel Aviv/Washington charade carried on for so long within the Oslo framework, is totally unrealistic in the near term. Israel would much rather be a pariah state than to submit its fate to Chinese or UN diplomacy, or for that matter, any intermediary that would seem fair to the Palestinians rather than partisan as in the past in favor of Israel.
For so long Israel has been coddled by American leaders that it became a hardened expectation with little wiggle room as Barack Obama found out early in his presidency when he dared to take baby steps in search of a middle ground.
It is worth recalling the anti-apartheid campaign against the South African racist regime that achieved prominence in the decades after 1945. The UN played a crucial role by its authoritative condemnation of apartheid as a crime against humanity and by its indirect encouragement of nonviolent resistance to South Africa racism throughout the world.
This anti-apartheid experience is an instructive precedent, raising hope for the eventual success of the Palestinian national struggle, although the South African leadership had been far less creative and effective than the Israelis in insulating their governing process from external pressures.
What is analyzed with reference to Palestine and the Jerusalem resolution can be understood as a template for a general appreciation of both what the UN can and cannot do. The UN has this central role to play in either confirming or dismissing symbolic claims associated with the grievances and rights of subjugated peoples in the world.
It is for this reason that governments fight so hard to have their policies accepted at the UN, or at least not criticized, censured, or punished, none more so than the government of Israel. Israel’s vicious attacks on the UN should be understood as disclosing the Israeli appreciation that, despite everything, the UN is a crucial site of struggle in the contemporary world order. Its findings of legitimacy and illegitimacy, especially if they resonate with feelings of justice around the world, impact strongly on civil society and often exert a strong influence on international public opinion and media coverage.
At the same time even if there is intense support for a symbolic outcome, it will rarely be self-enforcing, and it will be almost impossible to enforce at all absent a rare supportive geopolitical consensus.
For instance, with respect to imposing sanctions on North Korea given its provocative nuclear program and accompanying diplomacy, it has been possible for all 15 members of the Security Council to agree sometimes on a common course of action, although as worried by Trump’s blustering belligerence that increases the danger of a universally unwanted and feared war. The geopolitical divergencies that were present at the UN were temporarily overcome by compromises. In this instance, the shared goal of avoiding a war on the Korean Peninsula encouraged governments to find some common ground.
The role of the UN in the Middle East has been particularly lamentable. First, the legacies of colonialism have left artificial political communities throughout the region. The Middle East also suffered from the geopolitical ambitions of the U.S., including its Cold War containment policy, strategic priorities accorded Gulf oil reserves and the security of Israel, and, since the Iranian Revolution of 1979, its resolve to limit the spread of Islamic influence and political extremism.
In effect, when the geopolitical stakes are high and associated with the policy priorities of dominant states, then the UN becomes marginalized, playing only trivial roles as in the long international civil wars that have caused such massive suffering in Syria and Yemen.
The conclusion to be reached is to view the UN realistically, affirming its central role with regard to symbols of legitimacy and its relative impotence if geopolitical forces are mobilized against any UN calls for action.
Sometimes, arguably, the UN can be too effective, as when geopolitical forces turn a blind eye to issues of sovereignty and justice in a weaker country. This happened when in 2011 the Security Council was hoodwinked into endorsing a NATO regime-changing intervention in Libya undertaken in the name of freedom and democracy, but resulting in chaos, violent strife, and ethnic tensions.
The prospects for a stronger UN presence in international life involve tethering geopolitics by taking steps that now seem politically impractical: abolishing the veto power of the five permanent members of the Security Council, making resolutions of the General Assembly binding if supported by three-fourths of UN members, basing UN funding on an independent tax base tied to international civil aviation or transnational financial transactions, and removing the selection of the Secretary General from the filter of P-5 approval.
These steps have been long advocated by those seeking a more effective UN, but have been blocked by states that do not want to diminish their international status or their geopolitical leverage.
Until the international system experiences a shock or intense stress, it is hard to imagine such steps being taken. In fact, given Trump’s regressive approach to global policy and thinly disguised hostility to the UN, it is more likely that the UN will be even more constrained in the near future as to what it can do to make the world more peaceful, prosperous, sustainable, and just.
The diplomatic rebuff of the UN after its irresponsible Jerusalem unilateralism, including the failure of its bullying tactics, has undoubtedly made the Trump presidency realize that the UN will not be a venue in which to push its regressive version of ultra-nationalist militarism.
Despite understandable degrees of disillusionment, people of good will dedicated to UN ideals should not give up on the Organization or its potentiality, but work harder to make the UN come closer to fulfilling its original promise, needed now more than ever.
Justice for the Palestinian people, however long deferred, remains the defining moral prism by which to assess the shifting balance between achieving global justice and bowing to the whims of geopolitics at the UN and elsewhere.
This article was originally published at RichardFalk.WordPress.com on January 18, 2018.
100 years of residence of two peoples on a narrow strip of land proved that Jews and Arabs can not and should not live in one country. Every nation must live in its own country. This is the essence of the UN decision on the partition of Palestine.
ALL Jews were expelled from the Gaza Strip and from areas A and B.
It’s time to ALL 6 million Arabs of Palestine to obtain the citizenship of the Palestinian National Autonomy.
Only then will begin economical, political and physical separation of Jews and Arabs.
Without this, peace in Palestine is impossible.
The declared policy of Zionist Israel is to create a Jewish majority, Marc.
Why should any people have the exclusive right to land?
Particularly when there are 12 million Palestinians and 6 million or so dominant Israelis, of mostly European origin.
Or is colonisation by force of arms, and sustaining that colony by force of arms the permanent solution – it`s never worked before, long term at least.
P.s. Abraham and the Hebrews were what we would call to-day, “Arabs”, and there is a sizable number of Arab Jews. It`s not Jews v Arabs, it`s European Colonists agains the intrinsic population.
Let’s see…what was the most important accomplishment of the UN last year? Hmmm…what about the year before that? Yawn
The author amazingly overlooks the creation by Great Britain in 1946 of the Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan – today called Jordan – in 78% of the territory comprised within the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine.
The UN attempt to create an additional second Arab state and also a Jewish State in 1947 in the remaining 22% of Mandate Palestine (quaintly referred to by the author as the “orientalizing solution”) would have given the Jews 12% – not 55% – of Palestine as the author claims.
After the 1967 War the Jews occupied just 22% of former Palestine – not 78% as the author claims.
It is time to end these false and misleading claims that continue to prevent the end of a conflict that has raged unresolved for 100 years.
There are now two States – one Jewish called Israel – and one Arab called Jordan – which currently exercise sovereignty in 95% of Mandate Palestine – the Jews in 17%, the Arabs in 78%.
When there is common agreement on this fundamental statement – allocating sovereignty in the remaining 5% of Palestine between Israel and Jordan can be swiftly achieved.
I don`t know where you obtained your “information” from, David, but it is all incorrect.
Transjordan was created in 1922 as a “sop” to persuade Abdullah from fighting in Syria in support of his brother Feisal against the French. It had nothing to do with British intentions in Palestine.
The United Nations does not have the authority to “Create States” the Partition plan was to prevent fighting, not to create a European Colony and an Arab State.
Today, Zionist Israel has used military superiority, with the approval of the USA, to iligally expand it`s borders to include all of Palestine, part of Syria and the Lebanon.
Much as you seek to deny it, the problem in Palestine is 100% the fault of European immigrants persuing the aims of Zionism, which has aims of an even larger Zionist State.
The “sop” that you call Transjordan became a fully-fledged independent Palestinian Arab state in 78% of Palestine in 1946 – and is today called Jordan.
It is time to try and peacefully resolve the partition of former Palestine into one Jewish State – Israel – and one Arab state – Jordan – which has already been resolved in 95% of former Palestine.
The selective rehashing of unsubstantiated and – quite frankly – Arab false and duplicitous claims – only guarantees the perpetuation or a conflict that could have been resolved in 1922 – if the Arabs had accepted the 78% “sop” that was delivered to them by the League of Nations and Great Britain or the further “sop” of a second Arab State in former Palestine proposed by the United Nations in 1947.
All other proposals have failed.
Time for Jordan and Israel to sit down and negotiate a new international border between their two respective States.
The UN has lost its mandate as a world political overseer. With regards to the so called ‘Palestinians’ who are developing into a nation for the past 50 years, they receive more aide from the UN than another other nation. Held in perpetual refugee status, the UNRWA organization provides goods and services for those descendants of Arabs who fled what is today Israel, under the direction of the Arab League only to find them unwanted by their host countries. The UN makes irrelevant resolution after irrelevant resolution against Israel — the true sufferers of the UN’s policies. The UN no longer takes care of the peoples of the world who truly need the assistance of an outside entity. Instead they are concerned about Israelis building homes on their land, and Israelis providing jobs for Arabs living in Judea and Samaria and Israelis setting up educational institutes, hospitals and roads in areas used frequently by Arabs. It’s time to dismantle the UN or at least push it back to what it was set up for. To help the under advantage nations to provide for their people. Not to allow 3rd and 4th generations of migrant workers stand in perpetual refugee status in hopes of a sovereign country’s cessation of existence.
The incitement through inaccurate information of this article assists in perpetuating the status of the Arabs who claim to be part of the nation called ‘Palestine’.
There are 5 million UN registered Palestinian refugees, peaceand quiet, all denied the right of return to their homeland simply because they are non-Jewish.
This despite a Israeli commitment as a condition of UN membership to allow the return of displaced Palestinians.
Israel has a problem, if Palestiian refugees return that would place Zionist Israelis in a minority, 6 million israeli Jews of mostly European origin and 12 million Palestinians of Palestine origin (5 million refugees, 3 million West Bank, 2 million Gaza and 2 million living as residential Israeli citizens).
If “Democracy” were applied then the “Will of the majority of the people”, the Palestinians would prevail, and that peaceand quiet is something Zionism cannot accept.
Of all the centuries of foreign occupiers of Palestine, only Zionist Israel has implemented a policy of removal of the Palestinian people from their homeland, even the Crusaders who kept themselves apart from the locals, still had no problem with lettingPalestinians get on with their lives.
All the rest, and there have been many, integrated into Palestinian society and provided advantages during the time they were there.
Not Zionist Israel though! they want their cake and eat it – if it were a comic book story, no one would believe it!
Very dumb. The Romans occupied Palestine and evicted many Jews. The Byzantine restricted Jewish rights to return as did the Muslims. There are no 12 million Palestinian refugees. There are much less than 1 million. Children and grandchildren of refugees are not refugees for any other refugee group except the Palestinians. Many of the 1948 refugees are dead or will be dying in coming years. Many of the refugees are citizens of Jordan (two million) and therefore not refugees at all.
Since there is no such thing as a Muslim state that protects the rights of the Jewish people (and most don’t even allow Jews) what kind of idiot would the Israelis be to trust their safety to any state with a Muslim majority. Even the United States would be in grave danger just from 20-25% Muslim population.
5 million UN registered Palestinian refugees, Jeffery, very easy to verify!
2 million Palestinians live in the Gaza Ghetto, 3 million Palestinians live in the illigally occupied West Bank and 2 million Palestinians live as residential citizens in Israel. That`s 12 million Jeffrey!
And I don`t include two 2 milion Palestinians who are now citizens of other countries Saudi Arabia has 250,000 and the USA provided visa`s to app 60,000 Palestinians (Christians) in 1948/9.
Iran`s 1979 constitution protects and guarantees the rights of some 30,000 Iranian Jews and some 300,000 Iranian Christians, A member of Iran`s UN delegation is Jewish! (Look it up!)
It`s a Zionist myth that Rome expelled Jews – The Roman Empire was always short of manpower (think about it), rebellions against Rome were crushed, survivors were enslaved but always had the opportunity for freedom.
Your conviction that Rome said to Palestinian Jews “Get out of my sight and never darken my doorstep again” is worthy of a Disney cartoon!
Josepus was a leader of a Jewish rebel organisation and was captured – he became Flavius Josephus a very well respected Roman citizen and the historian who wrote “The Jewish War” and “History of the Jewish War”, who had four Jewish Roman wives.
Your beliefs, Jeffrey, are based on unsubstantiated generalisations that require a large degree of historical ignorance from those who are desperate to justify their beliefs.
If you really want an example of Roman persecution of a religion, look no further than some 300 years of ruthless Roman persecution of Christians and it was a very active persecution Jeffrey!
The UN is a joke. The Palestinians living in Gaza are not refugees. They have a home…Gaza. Part of their beloved Palestine. The Arabs living in Israel are citizens of Israel are not refugees because they are citizens of a country and live there. Virtually all of the Arabs in the West Bank are living under the Palestine Authority. They are not refugees either.
The refugees are the ones in Syria and Lebanon (just the original ones, not their descendants). The Palestinians in Jordan are citizens of Jordan.
Josephus died in 100 AD, the Jewish exile in large numbers started later as stated in Wikipedia:
Jews continued to live in their land in significant numbers, the Kitos War of 115-117 nothwithstanding, until Julius Severus ravaged Judea while putting down the Bar Kokhba revolt
of 132–136. 985 villages were destroyed and most of the Jewish
population of central Judaea was essentially wiped out – killed, sold
into slavery, or forced to flee.[6] Banished from Jerusalem, which was renamed Aelia Capitolina, the Jewish population now centered on Galilee,[7] initially at Yavneh.
My knowledge of history is better than yours. The Romans did persecute the Christians and then infected the Christians which became worse than the Romans for many hundreds of years thereafter.
Read what I said, Jeffrey, 5 million UN registered Palestinians are in addition to those living in Gaza, The West Bank and Israel itself! 12 million Palestinian in total.
Israeli Palestinians are not full citizens, instead they are classified as “Residentian Citizens” and can be and regularly are deported. Marriage between Israeli Jewish citizens and Palestinian residential citizens are not possible in Zionist Israel.
You make a contradiction when you claim that all todays Jews have the right of a homeland in Palestine, based on a 69 year long rule of David and Solomon, some 3,000 years ago, yet reject the same claim of Palestinians and their descendants, who lived there 71 years ago!
I would be very interested where those so called Jewish Palestinians were exiled to? There is no historical evidence of such “mass migration”, or why the Roman Empire, always desperate for manpower, would insist on the loss of such a valuable asset?
As to your claim of having superior historical knowlege, Jeffrey, with the greatest respect, not even the most casual students of history would dream of qouting Wikipedia (twice!) as valid source material.
Perhaps you are confusing conditional bias gained from the Hasbara archives with historical accuracy?
That said, if your historical knowlege is sound, perhaps you could provide your comments for the Hagana inspired agreements with Adolf Eichmann and why successive Israeli Governments refuse to release the documents relating to Adolf Eichmann`s (Yes, THAT Adolf Eichmann) ivitation to Palestine (Haifa) and his subsequent meetings with David ben Gurion and the Hagana leadership in Cairo?
Any serious student of M.E. history would give his eye teeth for acces to those papers!
More nonsense.
1) Arab citizens of Israel are full citizens with all rights. They cannot be deported under any grounds that would not apply to all citizens.
The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that “Arab Israelis are
citizens of Israel with equal rights” and states that “The only legal
distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but
rather of civic duty. Since Israel’s establishment, Arab citizens have
been exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces
(IDF).”[195] Druze and Circassians
are drafted into the Israeli army, while other Arabs may serve
voluntarily; however, only a very small number of Arabs choose to
volunteer for the Israeli army
Arab citizens might be viewed with suspicion by many Israeli Jews for the same reason Japanese Americans were viewed with suspicion during WW2. But Israel does not intern them. That’s not likely to change until there is peace.
2. Jewish kings ruled Israel and Judah for hundreds of years not 69 years. After that, Jews ruled the land as vassal state under the Persians and then independent again under the Hasmonean dynasty 168–37 BCE. The Romans eliminate Jewish control of Judea in 60-135 AD. So, yes the claims of the Jews are for 1,000 years and the claims of the Palestinians are for 71 years a you put it.
3. The Jews were exiled all over including Galilee and Alexandria. You say there is no evidence but historians disagree although it is now understood there were many exiles before and including the Roman one that played a role.
After the Bar Kochba Revolt of 132-135 CE, the Romans engaged in mass executions, expulsions, and
enslavement, destroying large numbers of Judean towns and forbidding Jews from settling in Jerusalem or its environs (Dio Cassius, Roman History 69.12-14); there was no further Jewish government or overarching legal system thereafter in Judaea; this effectively turned the expatriate Jews of the Diaspora into a permanently exiled people, deprived of their homeland. Restrictions (taxation, discrimination, social exclusions) further alienated and marginalized remaining Jews in
the Negev and Galilee and favored the settlement of culturally pagan Syro-Phoenicians and others.[26] It was at this time that Judaea became normatively known as Syria Palestina.
After this failed Jewish uprising, the majority of Jews in Israel were sold as slaves, killed or forced to seek refuge outside Palestine. In addition, Hadrian encouraged non-Jews to settle the land. Although
some Jews maintained their presence in Syria-Palestina, they became a disposed and dispersed people.[27] Memory of the Jewish exile was normative in medieval Jewish discourse, and also made its way into Christian and Islamic thought and discourse.[28] Judea and Samaria were renamed by Hadrian to Syria Palaestina; it is commonly held that this was done as an insult to the Jews and as a means of erasing the land’s Jewish identity,[29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36] although this is based on circumstantial evidence.[37][38]
A widespread popular belief holds that sudden expulsion of Jews from Judea/Syria Palaestina led to the Diaspora,[39] but historians disagree with that view.[40] Instead, they argue that the growth of diaspora Jewish communities was a gradual process that occurred over the centuries, starting with the Assyrian destruction of Israel, the Babylonian destruction of Judah, the Roman destruction of Judea, and the subsequent rule of Christians and Muslims. After the revolt, the Jewish religious and cultural center
shifted to the Babylonian Jewish community and its scholars. For the generations that followed, the destruction of the Second Temple event came to represent a fundamental insight about the Jews who had become a dispossessed and persecuted people for much of their history.[41]
4) It is true that some Zionists tried to bribe Hitler’s Germany (before the Holocaust) to let the German Jews leave the country and go to Palestine. That effort largely failed but it was a noble effort. It was not contemplated the extremes to which Hitler would go to exterminate the Jews of course. If that had been known, they would have been better served trying to assassinate him (as many time travel novels speculate about doing). I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Obviously the Zionists were not allies of the Nazis, they were just trying to save their people. When Israel released Palestinian murderers to obtain the remains of Israeli soldiers it is not on the side of the Palestinians, it is paying a ransom.
Palestinians who found themselves living within expanded Israeli borders, Jeffrey are classified as “Residential Citizens” – They are subject to 60 Israeli Aparetheid laws, applicable only to Palestinians.
They are frequently deported – 3 UN resolutions have been passed condemning Israel deportations.
Supreme Court Judge Theodor Or, in the 2000 “Or Commision” Findings, concluded that (Zionist) Israel discriminated against Israeli Palestinians.
Israel has assassinated 350 Palestinian leaders, and in 2006 the israeli Supreme Court passed legislation making assassination of Palestinian leaders legal, under Israeli law – no other country in the world has legalised political assassination.
Palestinian Israeli residential citizens are not allowed to serve in the Israeli military, it`s Israeli law!. But look it up Jeffrey.
After the death of Solomon, the “Kingdom of Israel” disintegrated into several “factions, after no more that 69 years it was no more – end of story Jeffrey. In a word that was predominately pagan, there was a minority Jewish population, in the Levant, some who achieved positions of authority, but never “Dynasties” (not so in other parts of the M.E. and Europe), but look it up Jeffrey..
THe Romans certainly indulged in massacres (150,000 Iceni were exterminated in app 40 A.D. in Britain) and slavery, but Jeffrey Romans never ever expelled rebels of any kind.
If you could explain how so called “Expulsons” were carried out? Did Roman armies escort the dispossesed? if so to where? (and don`t forget that Rome occupied al Mediterranean countries).
So where did the Roman “escorts” take them, Jeffrey? To the borders of the Roman Empire to provide additional manpower to those who engaged in hostile resistance to Roman expansion.
There are no Roman records of of any such events, not even hints, and the Romans kept meticulous records, Jeffrey – explain please!
Or did the Romans put them in ships and sail them past the borders of the Roman Empire, at great cost to Rome, depositing them to provide additional manpower to those engaged in hostile resistance to Roman Expansion.
There are no Roman records of any such events, not even hints, and the Romans kept meticulous records Jeffrey – explain please!
Or perhaps it`s Zionist propaganda with no validity, produced only for naive Hasbara volunteers, eh Jeffrey!
Feival Polkes, traveled to Berlin (19370 and met Adolf Eichmann, who was invited to Palestine to meet the Hagana leadership, Eichmann arrived in Haifa and was hosted by Hagana leaders, later traveling to Cairo wher a series of meetings were held- these are the documents all Israeli Governments have refused to release.
What is known is Hagana agreed that Feival Polkes would spy for Nazi Germany, reporting to his Gestapo contact for the duration of WW2.
As you know France held the Mandate for Syria, and Germany occupied France, the Vichi French Government allowed Syrian airfields to be used by the Luftwaffe who made good use of Fieval Polks disclosures of British military (and American) movements to provide valuable assistance the the Nazi war effort.
All`s fair in love and war, Jeffrey, Zionist efforts were just another aspect of war, Arab pro-Nazi collaboration was insignificant in comparison.
You do however see blissfully unaware of the Haavara agreement between Zionism and the Nazi German Government, look it up Jeffrey, it was highly significant!
Mike,
Now that I know you get your information from Electronic Intifada, If only Americans knew and other Muslim propaganda sites, there is little point to continuing this discussion.
1) You just made up this “residential citizen” nonsense. Israeli Arabs have full rights including the right to serve in the military. They are not forced to serve, but Druse do eagerly and some other Arabs do as well.
2) Yes, some laws in Israel encourage Jews to immigrate. So, what? That is the purpose of Israel, to provide a safe haven for Jews, not to take in every Arab. There are already 20+ Arab countries, go to on the of them. America has many laws that favor Blacks and other “disadvantaged” persons. Those are called affirmative action and are usually upheld as constitutional.
3) You have no historical basis for your statements about the long line of Jewish Kings. You just made all that up from one of your discredited websites.
4) Your continued efforts to link the Zionists with the Nazi’s is right of the mouth of that bastard Ken Livingstone. I suggest you read this article.
http://fathomjournal.org/an-antisemitic-hoax-lenni-brenner-on-zionist-collaboration-with-the-nazis/
5) The Romans killed or expelled many Jews from Judea. I did not say they were put on ships. In fact, I said many went to the Galilee or surrounding areas. They walked or road asses (like you). And of course some Jews were already living out of Judea in other parts of the Roman empire.
Bottom line is I wondered why you hate Jews (don’t bother denying it) and now I know. As other posters on this forum have observed you are just anti-Semite. I believe God will punish the English people and it has already began with the invasion of the Muslims. Let’s see how well you are doing in 30 years. There will be some UKIP types still around but by then it might be too late.
Hasbara volunteers, Jeffrey, all conduct exchanges by using the same techique, which you have conformed to!
All are confident of the accuracy of the Hasbara archives, sooner or later they become irritated when the validity of that propaganda is contradicted with historcal realities.
Then they reject what they cannot accept, first denial then resorting to a belief that alternative interpretations coud only be a result of a hatred of Jews or the convictions of a “Self hating Jew”
I`ve never understood that expression, if someone hates being Jewish they would convert to something else, or reject Judaism, as Mark Zuckerberg did. Mordechai Vanunu converted, after serving 18 years (11 in solitary confinement) for disclosing Israel`s nuclear program, he`s now a Christian.
Perhaps.Jeffrey, the term “Self hating Jew” is simply a method of avoiding the issues they raise?
Your original claim was “The Jewish exile, in large numbers” now you state “Many went to Galalee or surrouding areas” well Jeffrey, Galalee and the surrounding areas were in Roman Palestine, hardly “An Exile”!
Back in the old days, a leader of any village was called the King (or Malik in Arabic), most were pagan but many were Jewish, none were dynasties in the Levant (As I stated), but Jewish Dynasties did exist elswhere – one was The Jewish Himyarite Kingdon in Yemen.
A pagan kingdom until about 400 A.D. then Jewish until 525 (Twice as long lasting as the Kingdom of Israel!), evangelistically Jewish at that, Jeffrey, and completely intolerant of Christianity, culminating with the rule of Dhu Newas who was pretty effective at massacring Christians – but Hey that was the way it happened in those days!
The Hasbara archives claim he was not really Jewish, but there is a street in Jerusalem named after Dhu Newas and people from the Jewish Kingdom of Himar are among those buried at Beit-She`arim in Israel.
Look elsewhere for historical information, Jeffrey, an excellent start would be; Western Imperialism in the Middle East 1914 – 1958, by D.K. Fieldhouse (now he is really old!), written as base reading for British University students of modern M.E. history – It`s Bibliography is massive.
It will certainly provide information that would allow you to debate from a informed position.
If this is Goodby! then I wish you well, Jeffrey, I`ve enjoyed our exchanges that the magic of the internet has facilitated – differenced of opinions or not, it`s good to tak.
Yes, Mike I have to let this conversation end. You see I am actually a working professional not a “habara volunteer.” Nor am I an old retiree like you apparently are. Anyway, you have a different baseline of facts with a different perspective. It is not surprising that a pathological condition of self-hatred exists. It can be seen in other people who were historically oppressed for many centuries. For example, there is the “Uncle Tom” which refers to a Black man who sided with the White Slaveowners. Any person who disagrees with mainstream thought in a political or religious culture is not automatically a “self-hater.” I reserve the term for the most virulent of self-haters.
Ultimately, today’s struggle is about Zionism which is being unfairly and inaccurately mischaracterized by enemies of Jews and enemies of Israel. That is the bottom line. Given your background and some of the statements you make, it is not clear whether your anti-Zionism stems from anti-Semitism or just ignorance. But further debate is clearly hopeless. One thing I hope Jews have learned by now is that their old ghetto Jew practice of endlessly trying to appease the local prince or ruler got them nothing but disrespect, hatred and persecution. In this world, the strong prosper and the weak suffer. Many people, including you apparently, are discomfited by the notion that finally Jews will fight back (as they did in ancient times).
If I ruled the world, Jeffrey, all politicians would be obliged to have history qualifications, degrees for every countries leaders and PHD`s for leaders of influential countries, it`s history that has brought us to where we are to-day, we should all be in agreement with historical basics.
A pertinent example is the current USA led claim that Russia “Annexed” the Crimea, despite a 2014 referendum that resulted insome 90% voting to become part of the Russian Federation, I would say that was a democratic process. Quite inlike the 1898 USA Annexation of Hawaii, using military force against the overwhelming opposition of Hawaiians.
I would guess that American “mainstream thought” currently opposes Crimea as part of the Russian Federation while supporting Hawaii as part of the USA, with no consideration of history!
As for Israel, it could and should be a guiding light among all M.E.countries, that was the intention of The Balfour Declaration, European Jewish immigration in numbers that could be absorbed into the existing Palestinian population, bringing technical enlightenment to an underdeveloped part of the world, and with the support of Britain.
Jewish immigration that assimilated into Palestinian society would have produced immediate and permanent mutual advantages, and that, Jeffrey would have my full support, it would have been a win win situation with no serious disadvantages that I can think of.
That aim has never been tolerated y Zionism. According to the Founding father of Zionism in the 19th century, Theodor Herzl, Zionism demanded an exclusive Jewish State “Stretching from the brook of Egypt (The Nile) to the Euphrates” taking in Lebanon, Syria and Iraq (Iraq where the Hebrews originated).
In the 1980`s this Zionism aim was reiterated as “The Yinon Plan”, with the assumed approval of Arael Sharon (who was instrumental in buiding West Bank settlements).
Do all followers of Judaism demand a exclusive Jewish homeland that extends from the Nile, through Lebanon and Syria, to the borders of Iran, Jeffrey? I think not, and increasing numbers, including Jews, are voicing objections.
I have long stated that Zionism hides behind the skirts of a fine old well respected religion, using smoke and mirrors, myths and propaganda to prevent close examination – and it`s been hugely succesful, but only in the West, the USA in particular.
Unfortunately not in the M.E. and it`s the M.E. that will have the last word, sooner or later, and that Jeffrey is what history has demonstrated time and time again.
How 300,000 people turned into 5 million refugees is beyond me. A refugee is one that has left their home due to war, natural disaster, persecution or eviction of a ruling party. The refugee and the first generation can be considered a refugee if they have not found permanent refuge in another country. How many of the so called 5 million refugees are not citizens of another country right now? Homeland means a place one lived for many years (50-60) were born there or have a tradition of connection. None of these so called refugees fit into any of these conditions, so by definition they are not refugees– which is a made up term as far as the Arabs are concerned.
The UN condition that states that their will be discussion about returning the Arabs who fled on their own accord in 1948 will be done once there is peace. As far as I know there is no peace in the region.
Hamas and PLO are very good at inflating numbers, the guesstimate of about 3.5 million Arabs in Judea/Samaria/Gaza would not overtake the Jewish majority inside Israel. The Arabs in Israel are not Palestinian (even though there is no such citizenship as there is no such country), they are Israeli.
Democracy prevails and the Jews are the majority and prevail. That’s life.
Of all the millennia of foreign occupiers of Israel only the Jews allow everyone to live in peace and as equals of all citizens. The Crusaders were massacred by the Arabs and the Muslims from the northeast. Again there were no Palestinians. During the British Mandate the Palestinians were the Jews, the Arabs were known as ARABS. The word Palestinian means invader — sort of tells you who these people really are.
If you were to be believed you might want to check facts prior to posting on the internet.
Now, P&Q, you are simply quoting from the Hasbara propaganda archives, which I have to say have long been discredited!
The word “Palestine” is a western created word, Herodotus (The Father of History) first wrote describing “Filistine” with the word “Palestine” some 450 BC. But there are abundant 5,000 year old Egyptian Hieroglyphs of “Filistine” (Simply Google “Filistine hieroglyphs” and see them for yourself).
The Hebrews originated in what is now Iraq, back then part of Egypt, Abraham was born in the ancient city of Ur (www.jewishpress.com has a report of April 2013 excavations of that site) – That would make Abraham and the Hebrews what to-day we would call “Arabs”! They certainly were not “Europeans”!
AND! no one doubts Hebrews “invaded” Filistine” (Called Canaan in English), Abraham arrived there some 400 years before David and Solomon (Daud and Suleiman in Hijaz Arabic)
Zionism demands the removal of all non-Jews, and that P&Q is not a requirement of Judaic beliefs, please don`t confuse the two.
As for checking facts, well that`s written in stone, I`m not so naive as to post unsubstantiated beliefs, all there comments on FPJ are likely to be read by some who will check the facts.
What Zionism is attempting has never ever succeeded in the history of mankind, there is no example of a minority subjugating a majority permanently by force of arms, integration with the majority Palestinian population would have worked, it still could.
But as the King-Crane Commission reported in 1919 “The Demands expressed by Zionists would need to be drastically moderated”.
Zionism is a disgrace to Judaism – Zionist Israel brings shame upon Jews.
The Balfour Declaration, the justification for the mischief that has become Israel, was breached by the Zionists from Day One. Britain had a duty to enforce the terms of the Declaration in protecting the Palestinians, which Britain did not. The lack of adherence on the part of the Zionists to the terms of the Balfour Declaration exposes the Zionists as liars and frauds, lacking in the most basic honour and humanity. God’s chosen people my arse. The evil done in God’s name exposes either God as evil or the Zionists as evil. My money is on the Zionists being evil without any help or hindrance from an uncaring God.
The King David Hotel incident was, I suspect, to show the world and especially the Palestinians that no one, particularly Britain, would be riding to their rescue. This, more than perhaps anything else, represents the end of the British Empire and the start of the Zionist Empire, today known by the deceptive term, “globalism”.
The Zionists did not violate the Balfour Declaration, which called for the creation of a Jewish state but did NOT call for the creation of any Arab state (only that Arab civil rights be respected). Other Arab states including in Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon were created. The Arabs were given 99.9% of the land to create Arab states and the Jews were given less than 1% including the “West Bank.” Seems fair to me. Arabs were hostile and violent. It is hard to respect civil rights for people who want to kill you.
Israel should annex the West Bank and leave Gaza and Jordan as the Arab states in Palestine.
Richard Falk is a totally discredited internationalists. The United States will never yield sovereignty to a majority of third world sh*tholes that run their own countries so poorly that their people are constantly trying to flee to the hated United States.
The Balfour Declaration required the Zionists to respect the rights of the Palestinians already living in Palestine. Using terrorism and later the armed forces of Israel to run them out of their homes and off their land at gunpoint, killing many, hardly counts as respecting the rights of the Palestinians. Not allowing the right off return to those lands confirms that the Zionist plan was, pure and simple, genocide. Genocide has served the Zionists well – without the Nazi genocide there would have been no popular support for the creation of Israel; without Zionist genocide, including the “gentler” genocide of the settlers against the Palestinians, there would not be such a divisive state as Israel.
It required them to respect the rights of Arabs (the term Palestinians is not use because there was no such thing yet). For the most part, those rights were respected but some Arabs committed atrocities and some Jews retaliated in kind. Anyway, you are very confused about “their land.” Very few Arabs were forced off “their land.” If you owned a home and wanted to remain you were able to. The Jews developed undeveloped swamp and desert land and built villages there. Jews bought land from absentee landlords and then sometimes expelled the tenants as would be the right of any landowner. Even today, virtually all settlements are built on State Land owned by Israel (as the successor to Jordan and Britain) and not on private land. Arabs sometimes claims they own land they don’t have legal title to and the courts sort that kind of dispute out.
The Jews could have done without the Holocaust and you are in idiot to suggest otherwise. The Balfour declaration was in 1917 and a Jewish state was to be created long BEFORE the Holocaust or WW2. Sadly, the Jews were not strong enough and the British were duplicitous. If there had been a Jewish state in 1920 maybe that would have saved a million or more Jews.
So pardon Jews and Israel if they disregard gibberish from people like 45clive. If you oppose the Jewish state so much, take up arms with Hamas and take your chances in war. At this point, Hamas and its supporters should just be killed off anyway. Of if you want to support BDS, fine, publish your name so Americans can know who you are and what you stand for. See how you like economic boycott yourself.
Grow up Jeffrey!
“Nothing shall be done which may prejudice the existing non-Jewish communities in PALESTINE” is what the Balfour Declaration stated!
Read some non-Zionist history (propaganda) and come to your senses – at least 750,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes in 1947/8 – Zionist Israel quickly passed laws preventing their return.
I have no problem with anyone supporting Israel, Palestine has a pretty continuous history of occupation, Israel is just the latest.
However, I do object to the policies and actions of Zionist Israel and I do object to the ignorant swallowing of nonesensical ejaculation of Zionist myths and lies that seem to be so readily swallowed by the ignorant.
Just Google “Tatura Massacre” – and weep Jeffrey.
You go read about the Hebron massacre and weep. The incident you referenced is disputed as stated on the Wikipedia page. The fact is this was war and you don’t allow enemy forces to remain behind your lines. The Jews were fighting for their very survival.
As for the Palestinians who fled, most of them are dead by now and many of them fled on their own accord or as directed by Arab leaders. Some no doubt fled to get out of a combat zone just like today we have millions of refugees who fled internal turmoil or war. So what?
These are Arabs who fled to Arab countries including the Palestinian Arab state of Jordan. So what? Jews fled Arab countries and were absorbed by Israel. Jews were expelled from the West Bank by Jordan in 1948 and were absorbed by Israel. The Arabs have no right to return to Israel because they have their own countries to go to and they would be a traitorous Fifth Column. Even George Washington did not allow the Tories who fled to Canada to return after the Revolutionary War.
The only one swallowing ejaculate seems to be you.
I presume, Jeffrey, you are referring to the 1929 events in Hebron?
Best always to go to the official source material which would be the annual British reports to the League of Nations.
The report for 1929, detailed the Hebron conflict, and put`s the complete blame on “Zionist Terrorists” some of which were illegal immigrants, who infiltrated into Hebron fully armed and attacked Palestinian residents,Jews, Cristians and Muslims.
Representatives of the long established Hebron Palestinian Jewish residents had earlier contacted the British authorities about rumours that were circulating of a Zionist terrorist attack which they felt may damage the existing good relations they experienced in Hebron.
In the aftermath, some 69 Jewish deaths were recorded, most were European immigrants, on the Palestinian side there were some 130 deaths.
Off hand, I believe this was, and still is the largest (single) number of Jewish deaths in Palestine,something that Zionist propaganda is keen to emphasise, that said the British authorities investigation concluded that Zionist terrorists from outside Hebron were the ones responsible instigating the event.
Tatura was outside the then Zionist Israeli borders, and had no strategic importance, it`s Zionist Israeli policy to deny atrocities they carried out, but there is overwhelming evidence of the massacre, including Israeli photographs of the machine gunning of the 300 or so unarmed prisonerswho were executed after being forced to dig a pit as their graves – one of some 600 Palestinian villages that suffered a similar fate.
“Palestinian refugees are mostly dead now!” “And they could have gone to Arab countries!!” are you serious?
What about European Jewish refugees? why did they go to Palestine? they could have gone to other European countries according to your logic, and George Washington`s!
What about Baruch Goldstein,another immigrant who went fully armed to Hebron and murdered 29 Palestinians as they knelt in prayer, it didn`t stop there either, a furthe 50 Hebron Palestinians were shot dead by the IDF when they gathered in the aftermath of Goldstein`s massacre.
I`m more that happy to “swap” atrocities Jeffrey, and my list is much longer than yours.
Only an idiot would suggest that Jews who suffered the Holocaust in Europe should have “gone to Europe.”
Your opinions of massacres is biased and just your opinion. This is what the British Shaw Commission stated about Hebron: “”About 9 o’clock on the morning of the 24th of August, Arabs in Hebron
made a most ferocious attack on the Jewish ghetto and on isolated Jewish
houses lying outside the crowded quarters of the town. More than 60
Jews – including many women and children – were murdered and more than
50 were wounded. This savage attack, of which no condemnation could be
too severe, was accompanied by wanton destruction and looting. Jewish
synagogues were desecrated, a Jewish hospital, which had provided
treatment for Arabs, was attacked and ransacked, and only the
exceptional personal courage displayed by Mr. Cafferata – the one
British Police Officer in the town – prevented the outbreak from
developing into a general massacre of the Jews in Hebron.”
Also, 9 Arabs were killed not 130. And there is no mention of any “Zionist terrorists.” Moreover, there were no “illegal” Jewish immigrants” to Palestine because the British had no right to stop any Jew from going there. Were it not for the British pro-Arab restrictions on Jewish immigration, many more Jews might have avoided the Holocaust. Their blood is on the British hands.
Your facts are wrong and/or distorted. Either you accept that the Jews have the right to sovereignty over their ancient homeland or you do not. If you do not, it just means you are either a hypocrite (because you concede other distinct people have the right to their own states) or an anti-Semite (who just does not like Jews). If you agree the Jews have this right, then the question is how to reconcile that with Arab nationalism. I think a fair division of the land is 99% to the Arabs and 1% to the Jews. So the Arabs yield Palestine west of the Jordan and keep the rest of Palestine as well as the other Arab land.
Yes, some Jews In Palestine probably naively thought if they just appeased the Arabs they would be left alone. Same type of Jews who thought they would surely be recognized as good Germans and left alone by Mr. Hitler.
I was simply pointing out, Jeffrey, that your comment that “Palestinians should go to Arab countries is as “idiotic” as saying European Jews should have gone to European countries.
“A Jewish homeland” would have to be Iraq, that`s where the Hebrews originated (when it was Egypt of course) Abrahan was born in the ancient city of Ur, colse to todays Basra. Abraham and the Hebrews moved to Filistine (Canaan) living most of his life in Hebron. it was 400 years later when David and Solomon ruled there, for app. 69 years among a predominantly Pagan population,it was not until 300 when pagan Arabs became a minority.
I`m aware of the Shaw Commission, and the reasons for it!
Chaim Weizmann was very concerned at the findings of the British annual report to the League of Nations, which castigated the actions of Zionist immigrants. He persuaded British P.M. Ramsey MacDonald to “re-examine” the 1929 Hebron events.
Sir Walter Shaw was a lawyer who`s career was built in British colonies, he is reputed to have used the (Semi derogatory) term “Western Oriental Gentlemen” to describe the colonial natives he dealt with, which quickly became “Wog`s” which was openly used to describe Arabs, differrencing from African colonist natives who were referred to as “Niggers”.
Today Shaw would be referred to as a racist, however in those days “white superiority” was assumed as being “ordained by God!” and quite normal. Sir Walter Shaw was a committed Zionist, as were Sir Henry Betterton and Sir Rhys Hopkin Morris, the 4th member was the working class Labour M.P. Henrey Snell, who was elevated into the House of Lords when the Shaw Commission findings were published, a bribe? I couldn`t possibly comment!
Shaw accepted the assertons of “White European Zionists” in Palestine and completely rejected the evidence of Palestinian “Wogs” Who Shaw described in the findings as “Peasants”, hence the modification of the original numbers of deaths documented in the original British Administrations 1929 enquiry. A whitewash by any other name, Jeffrey.
Later there was the Hope Simpson enquiry and the Passfield white paper that both emphasised a strict limitation on Jewish immigrants to Palestine.
Chaim Weizmann succeeded in obtaining an “official” report that differed from the original “official” findings, ever since Zionist propaganda has selectively focused on one report – which is the way of Zionism!
You are right that some British were Zionists but many were anti-Semites and favored the Arabs, thus the White Paper. Result, many Jews died in the Holocaust who might have been saved if a Jewish state had been create in 1920 as promised. So the British have much to be blamed for.
The other statement you make is ridiculous. Palestinians can always move to one of the other Arab nations including Palestinian states of Jordan and “Gaza.” There is only one Jewish nation and it’s not in Europe. European Jews have every right to live in their ancestral homeland of Israel.
Ultimately, it is a conflict of contrasting nationalism. Jewish nationalism which dates back 3,000 years and Arabic nationalism which dates to the 7th Century with Palestinian Arab nationalism being invented in the 20th century. It seems reasonable to divide the land and the people at the Jordan River and that’s the direction things are moving.
Then busy-bodies like you can move on to the plight of the Kurdish people who have no nation despite being much better qualified for one than the Palestinians are.
There was no “promise to create a Jewish State” Jeffrey, just a “Home for Jews in Palestine”.
Britain, and many British and American Jews, envisioned Jewish immigration, based on economically absorbed numbers, who would provide “leadership and development” to what were regarded as “not quite human” dark skinned Palestinians on the British Colonial model that was effective and unchallenged at the time.
Arab is a name first coined in 1,200 b.c. by the Assyrians to describe the people within their “empires” which covered all of the Fertile Crescent. The Hijaz, where Islam was founded nearly 2,000 later, was not part of that empire, though undoubtedly people of Hijaz were Arabs.
Only in 1934 was Hijaz renamed (in the West) Saudi Arabia (and that`s a complicated subject initself!), Islam is Arabic, as is Christianity and Judaism, but Arab is not Islam, e.g. today 45% of Lebanon`s Arabs are Christians.
There have been several “Arab” countries that have had Jewish rulers, Adiabene, in Kurdistsn, Himyarite, in Yemen, Semien, in Ethiopia, and in Europe Khazarea the last and longest lasting, covering Ukraine, The Crimea and large parts of Southern Russia, it lasted from the 7th to the 10th century, much longer than the 69 years of Davis and Solomons!
The Jewish King Hiram ruled for a while in Acre.
And, Jeffrey, during the time of David and Solomon, Israel was a part of the Egyptian empire, the Pharaoh Seti conducted 7 consecutive summer campaigns against the Hittites (Northern Syria/Southern Turkey) during David and Solomon`s time, His armies would have marched through Israel, collecting conscrips (and taxes). The then population of Israel was predominantly pagan.
The most valid claim for “A Jewish homeland” would be Iraq, that`s where the Hebrews originated and where Abraham was born, but it`s a very weak justification, no more valid that the Crusader occupation of the Levant because it was the brithpace of Jesus.
You seem desperate to cling on to the the Zionist myths and seem to resent my presentation of historical events! It`s not my opinions you should be concerned about, it`s the opinions of some 12 million Palestinians amongs some 400 million Arabs, plus some 80 million Iranians, who are all affected by Zionist Israeli actions.
And finally, Jeffrey, there are some 15 million Jews around the world, the minority (6 million or so of mainly European origin) live in Israel, the large majority have neither the desire nor the need to live on occupied Palestinian land.
It`s the demands of (most) of those 6 million Israeli Jews for an exclusive Jewish State in Palestine and the eviction by all means possible of the intrinsic Palestinian population. Were those Zionist demands to be moderated, with Israelis and Palestinians having equal rights, what a far, far better place and a far better future we would see.
Most of the worlds Jews integrate very successfully – but not in Israel.
P.S. Kurdistan was split in 3 ways in the 1924, post WW1 border agreement between Turkey, France and Britain. Shamefully Kurdish opinion was dismissed, it created chaos then and ever since, were I Kurdish, I would be spitting blood!.
Arabs came from Arabia. There were some in Palestine in Roman times but not many. They did not conquer it until the 7th century. Christianity and Judaism are not “Arabic.” That’s ridiculous. There were Jews and Christians in Arabia at the time of Mohamed of course, but he invented a new religion. Liked Joseph Smith, only on Jihad steroids. The rest of your post is nonsense. There were Jewish kings of Arab nations perhaps although I never heard of any, but they were still Jewish. Zionism is part of the Bible believed by 1 billion + Christians, you forgot to mention them. Most Arabs don’t care about the Palestinians; if they did, they would have provided land for their fellow Arabs like Israel did for fellow Jews.
If Jews integrated so great, how come they were persecuted for 2,000 years and murdered in the Holocaust. All that integration did not help. You know what helps? Power and the fist help. The weak are always taken advantage of.
Your opinion is basically, oh well you Jews do not even get your own tiny little country even though many other people who have made much fewer contributions to the world get many countries. Who cares. If Jews cannot rely on your basic sense of decency then it’s better to be strong. The only validity of the Arab claim is that they conquered it through brute force and nothing you say changes that simple fact.
Israel should just annex the West Bank and incorporate those Arabs who are willing to be good citizens and deport the rest or relegate them to resident alien status. Jordan and Gaza will be the Palestinian states.
Can you give me valid objections to this plan other than the Arabs don’t like it?
Arabia is another name for The Middle East, Jeffrey, a region from Egypt to Iraq and down to Yemen. The intrinsic people there are called Arabs – religion makes no difference!
The Jewish Religion originated in what is now Iraq, the Christian religion originated in Palestine and the Islamic religion originated in what in the West is recognised as Saudi Arabia, but in Arabia is still called Hijaz.
Persecution of minorities during the last 2,000 years is a regretable fact of life, those accused of being “witches” have a long history of persecution; 170 women were executed as witches in Rome in 331 b.c. and it was official Roman policy.
In the 17th century, some 50,000 (mostly females) were burned across Europe as witches, part of some 150,000 such deaths between the 15th and 18th centuries, even in America, witches were killed as late as the mid 17th century
Judaism did not suffer in this way.
In the 13th century 20,000 (at least) Cathars were exterminated by armies of the Church of Rome, a similar number of Templars were executed in the 14th century, and their leaders burned alive. In 1099, every single Muslim was brutally killed when the Crusaders captured Jerusalem, and in 1191, King Richard had 2700 (at least) muslim women, old men and children massacred at Acre, breaking his promise to protect them when Saladin surrendered Acre.
I`m aware of unjustified massacres of Jews, one of the first, the messianic Crusaders slaughter of some 800 Jews in Worms in 1096 is a shameful episode and one that Christianity largely choses to ignore.
As for the Holocaust, if we accept the figures first given in the 1945/9 Nuremberg War trials; 6 million Jews were exterminated from a total of 14 million victims, no evidence has ever emerged to justify these figures, yet that is not really the important issue.
It would appear that 8 million non-Jews were also exterminated, and they Jeffrey would certainly be Christians. it does not lessen the crimes committed against Judaism, but it would confirm that Christians suffered on a larger scale.
Hitler himself was Christian (Catholic) and the German people were overwhelmingly Christians (Mostly Protestants), yet the “Christain” West also igores the fact that Nazism was a political party founded and supported by Christians.
In 1939, American public sentiment was strongly pro-Nazi, the previous year Adolf Hitler was the New York “Time” magazines “Man of the Year”. Pro Nazi Germany demonstrations were held throughout the USA, massive ones in New York and Chicago.
Hitler was “Off his head” he was certainly deluded, it is very doubtful that a Hitler of a Nazi party could emerge today. I mention this as you seem to be locked into the attitudes of the 1930/40`s, convinced that force is the only way for Zionist Israel.
Since 1947, the USA has provided unconditional Financial, Military and Diplomatic support for Israel, overt and covert, which has allowed Israel to expand it`s borders with little resistance. How long USA support will be maintained effectively,is a moot point.
For the first time ever, USA policy is being challenged by a non-M.E. country in Syria, 10 years ago Russian intervention was not viable, not so today.
China also is providing support for the Assad Government with training and supplyingthe Syrian army. Then we have Iran, secure of Chinese and Russian support with a rapidly growing military capability, strong enough to supply Hezbollah with weaponry, and Hezbollah was elected and holdsthe balance of power in Lebanon – A situation unthinkable10 years, or even 5 years ago.
As far as Iran is concerned, the USA has been rendered impotent, China and Russia will see to that.
Palestinians belong to Palestine, they were there long before the Balfour Declaration and the 20th century mass immigration of Europeans, Zionist military power has created the current (unsatisfactory) situation, foolish in the extreme, Jeffrey, to assume the current imbalance of power is written in stone – it is not!
Your level of ignorance is outstanding but I only have time to make a few corrections.
Only Jews were targeted in the Holocaust as a people even though they were not a war with Germany. Yes, there were millions of other deaths, mostly non-Jewish Pole and non-Jewish Russians and those were horrible as well but Germany was at war with those countries and they were killing each other (well at least Russians were).
While Hitler seized upon anti-Semitism latent (and sometimes patent) in Christian Europe he was no Christian by any measure. You could not find any support for his vifews or actions in the Bible. If anything, like many anti-Semites he was driven by hatred of the Jews which was simply projected hatred of God.
Time Magazine “Man of the Year” means the most newsworthy, not the best person for the year.
A Hitler could certainly emerge today. It could easily spring out of the Islamic faith judging by the way they butcher each other today.
The USA has never provided unconditional support to Israel. There were people in the US government starting back in 1948 and continuing through the Obama administration who opposed Israel.
Neither China nor Russia have any loyalty to or love of the Muslims including those in Iran and Syria. They are acting out of their own self-interest but Russia is not interested in any conflict with Israel and China has growing economic ties with Israel.
Nothing is written in stone, but it’s not really your business is it? It’s hard for me to understand your obsession with Israel and the Jews. Perhaps your name is fake and you are a Muslim Arab. If so, be honest. Perhaps you are just a Neo-Nazi and don’t think Jews should have their own country.
The only “people” targeted by Nazi`s, Jeffrey, were Serbs (Blue patch) and Gypsies (Brown patch), the religions targeted were Jehovah`s Witnesses (Purple patch) and Jews (Yellow patch).
In 1930`s Germany there were some 500,000 German Jews, the initial main target for the Fascist Nazi party was German Communists (Red patch), Legislation was approved for concentration camps, initially only for Communists, Social Democrats, Anarchists and other “Enemies of the State” (All Red patch).
Homosexuals (Pink patch), vagrants, alcoholics, prostitutes, the “work shy”, and anyone classified as homeless, were arrested as “Asocials” (Black patch).
By 1938, Jews, began to be arrested, based on Hitlers claim that Jews were an ethnic race (Semi Slav), and Adolf had a pathological hatred for Slav`s, particularly Communist Slav`s.
It has to be said that, in January 1944, the German army prepared a list of 77 high ranking German Jews who were serving in the Wehrmarcht, all 77 had received a declaration (from Hitler) that they were “Of German blood”.
Confusing and complecated, and it get`s worse! The laws of Reich citizenship, and the Law for the protection of German blood, defines as a Jew, anyone with at least 3 Jewish grandparents. Nazi Germany also created a classification of “Mischling 1” those with one Jewish parent, and “Mischling 2) those with 1 Jewish grandparent.
I cannot accept that in to-day`s USA or Europe, where the majority of the worlds Jews now live, that sort of perverted system would be permitted to emerge without challenge.
It`s not unreasonable to assume that, in the early 1930`s, among arrested Communists, Social Democrats, Anarchists and the homeless there were some Jews who were arrested and confined for reasons other that religious beliefs, but it`s a moot point.
A more valid point is the some 6 million Polish Slavic victims of Hitlers lunacy.
Your claim that they were “War victims” belies the reality that 3 million of those Polish “War” victims were Jewish, and your claim that only Jews were targeted because of what they were, has no logical validity and is dismissive of all other targeted victims of Nazi genocide.
And Jeffrey, it has to be said that the Holocaust did not happen in Palestine – why then do you feel it`s appropriate Palestinians should be punished for the crimes that were committed in Europe?
P.S. Born in London and an avid supporter of Sunderland Associated Football Club (Don`t ask!). Feel honoured, Jeffrey, that`s the first time ever I have disclosed personal information on any forum!
Most of your post is incoherent rambling but salient points are:
1) I’m not suggesting a Holocaust type threats to Jews in Europe or USA in the foreseeable future but Jews in France for example are leaving in higher than normal numbers due to Muslim harassment.
2) The Arabs are not being “punished” for the Holocaust by the creation of the Jewish state in Palestine, although many Muslim leaders of the 1930’s were pro-Nazi. They are just forfeiting part of the land they seized for their empire to the original owners. Too bad.
3) Jews were not persecuted because they were Slavs. Hitler wrote Mein Kamp in the 1920’s and his hatred of Jews as present in that book, long before he came to power.
4) Thanks for admitting you’re English. I see no reason to give any weight to the opinions of the British people who blocked Jewish refugees from entering Palestine, which might have saved their lives. That’s like Americans caring what the British thought about the American revolution.
5) Soccer is a dumb sport. It will never be more than second tier here in the USA.
My “salient point” Jeffrey was, there were no Slavs, Gypsies, Communists, Jehovahs Witnesses, tolerated in the Nazi armed forces, yet there are many examples of Jews serving, and awarded medals! Yes Nazis persecuted Jews, but it was never quite as black and white as you claim.
1) French Jewish immigration to Israel, Jeffrey, fell by 25% in the first 6 months of 2017, according to Haaretz (28th January 2018). The Israeli Government no longer publishes net immigration to Israel, but the last year they were (2015) revealed a net loss of 89,000 (Jewish) Israelis, one can only guess why, no one really knows.
2) Abraham and the Hebrews arrived in what was known as Filistine, referred to as Canaan in the Torah, and Palestine in the west from app. 450 B.C. 400 years later David and then Solomon ruled there in part of the Egyptian “Empire”. There was always a Pagan majority until 300 A.D. when Christianity was first established, later most of the intrinsic population converted to Islam.
To claim a short period of Jewish “Administration” is justification that Palestine is forever owned by Jews, is a Zionist propaganda myth, as ridicluous as would be a Zionist claim that England is forever a Jewish homeland, because Jewish Born Benjamin Disraeli was Englands Prime Minister 1874 – 1880!
If Palestinians are not being punished then let 5 million Palestinians return to their homeland!
3) Hitler was demented – he demanded a racial pure Aryan Germanic Empire, that re-created the Carolingian Reich of Charlamange. Mein Kampf outlined his demands for Ayryan supremacy by the removal of sub human races and describes how he beame to believe that there was an ethnic Jewish race, justified by Nazi Eugenics research (around the same time similar research was taking place in Britain and the USA – scary eh!)
Slavs were the number 1 target for Nazi racism, simply because there were the most numerous, and Slaves were exterminated without concern for their religion, be they Jews or Christians.
4) The Palestine Zionist Agency agreed with the British Administration and the Arab League, in 1930 to restrict numbers of European Jewish immigrants to “Economically acceptable Numbers” which was set at 76,000 over a 10 year period. The Zionist Agency agreed to this, Jeffrey, but as is the way of Zionism, they disregarded their agreement.
The American revolution was a good example of “The Will of the People”. British arrogance came from military superiority, which from 1776 was never seriously challenged, until the emergence of the USA as a financial and military superpower. I could make your toes curl with documented evidence of British villany when imposing it`s interests!
5) If you think Soccer is a dumb sport, how about Cricket? that game is weirdly strange, that said both Soccer and Cricket have huge worldwide following, billions of viewers for televised soccer games, the USA population of some 330 million is not really important!
As usual, your comments reflect many errors, except one. In reverse order.
5) Cricket is incredibly dumb. May not be even be an English sport anymore.
4) I don’t know what 1930 “agreement” you reference, but the persecution of Jews in Germany began in 1935. The Zionists were completely against the limits at that point as now there was great urgency to get the Jews out of Germany. That is what you referenced earlier, attempts to bribe Germany to let Jews out. By the time of the 1939 White Paper, Zionist groups in Palestine immediately rejected the White Paper and
began a campaign of attacks on government property and Arab civilians
which lasted for several months. On 18 May a Jewish general strike was
called, etc. In hindsight, the Zionists were right and the British (you) were wrong resulting in the deaths of many Jews. Thanks.
3) Neither Jews nor Slavs are “races.” If you think they are, you are demented as Hitler. Slavs served in the Nazi army and government. There were many Slav militias that affiliated with the Nazis including in Ukraine and Croatia. Some of those were even worse than the German Nazis in their hatred and murder of Jews. How did you forget that?
Very few Jews served in the Nazi army and it would be a Jewish grandparent. The example you cited the other day was about a Field Marshall. Turns out his non-Jewish mother claimed she had an affair with someone else and the Field Marshall was not born to her Jewish husband.
2) I don’t see the word Filistine or Palestine in the Biblical account of Abraham. You just made that up. David and Solomon were not part of any Egyptian Empire. You just made that up. Jews controlled Palestine for the better part of 1,000 years with some interruptions as stated in my earlier documented post. You just make up whatever you want. I doubt you even have a formal degree in any relevant field.
1) French Jewish emigration may or may not have dropped a bit from unusually high numbers the previous year. It’s tough to emigrate to a nation that uses a different language and you have to have transferable job skills as Israel is an expensive place to live. The numbers fluctuate depending on events like terrorist attacks and Muslim-inspired persecution. It’s not predictable which is why Israel has to be available for unexpected influxes.
That applies to other nations where Jews might be flourishing. Most people do not leave a country where they own property, have established jobs or professions and are doing well. Especially not when they would have to learn a new language. Most Israelis speak some English so it is easier for them to come to the USA for example than vice versa with respect to modern Hebrew.
Your country of England has its own immigration problems that you should focus on. I think you are quite old but would you be happy for your grandkids to being living in Muslim England? I suspect not unless you are in fact a Muslim.
Now you`re rambling, Jeffrey!
You ask and academic question, would I be happy if my Grandchildren were to find themselves living in a Muslim England?
Yet you demand that Palestinian, Christians and Muslims, should be “happy” living in a European Zionist Colony!
Muslim and every other historial immigrant group to the UK have integrated into British society pretty well, even the 1066 Norman conquest invaders were absorbed into English society so well that a Norman entity vanished quite quickly (The same happened when the Mongols invaded Iran!)
Invasion or mass immigration always produces objectors, that`s normal, it happened during the pre and post WW2 immigration of European Jews into the UK. Overall successful immigrant groups adapt to prevailing attitues and more importantly, provide advantages, and Jeffrey Jewish and Muslim immigrants have managed that rather well.
There are some inadequates who are anti-Jewish and others that are anti-Muslim (3 muslims murdered in 2016, just for being Muslim, plus, on the 19th June 2017, British maniac drove a truck into Muslims departing a Mosque, killing 1 and injuring 11, and on the 4th December, 2017 a Polish born Brit drove his van into a Curry shop, shouting “I want to kill a Muslim”.
It`s centuries since a British Jew was killed just for being a Jew, though there were widespread anti-Jewish “Riots” in 1947, as a reaction to the kidnapping and hanging of two off duty British soldiers by the Zionist Irgun terrorist group.
It was a mindless reaction that assumed British Jews were responsible for Zionist acts of terror, hence my care to seperate Judaism from Zionism – I am not alone, Jeffrey!
For years Zionism has hidden behind the skirts of Judaism, in recent years concerned Israelis have created “B`Tselem” to publicise Zionist breaches of Human rights in the occupied Palestinian West Bank, then there is “Breaking The Silence”, IDF soldiers who object to being ordered to breach Human rights in the West Bank.
“B`Tselem” and “Breaking the Silence” are regularly raided and computer programs confiscated, however the USA website “If Americans Knew” contains source files and verification to events that Zinism does not wish to be disclosed.
Then there is “The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network”, and “Jews for justice for Palestinians”, just two of many that did notexist a few years ago.
Recently 100 of the worlds leading Universities, have formed “Apartheid Israel”, exposing the reality of Zionist Israel every year for two week, many Israeli historians and ex-diplomats contribute, and now “BDS” – the first effective Palestinian organisation.
The Hasbara archives that you so heavily rely on have long been discredited, give your support to a State of Israel by all means, but do it from historical facts not myths.
The long declared Zionist demand has been for an exclusive Jewish State, somewhat larger that the one we now see. Zionism rejects assimilation with a non-Jewish intrinsic population and enforced that policy with military superiority, despite mankinds history proving that no minority has ever succeeded in subjugating a majority on a permanent basis.
neither is that the philosophy of Judaism, Jeffery – If it were you would not be satisfied with life in the USA.
AND! Jeffrey, I don`t make up historical facts, I do however question those who do!
I have two children, if and when they marry, the religion of their spouse is a matter only for them – I might have a problem with a same sex marriage, but I suppose I would get used to the idea, eventually!
All of those organizations you mention are fringe anti-Semitic groups that want to destroy Israel and hate Jews (even the ones led by self-hating Jews). I am sorry but Zionism is intrinsic to Judaism because it is in the Bible. So you can be anti-Zionist atheist Jews but I don’t see how you can be anti-Zionist if you are a believing Jew (or Christian for that matter). Zionism is a very good thing not a bad thing as presented by the Muslim, leftist and Neo-Nazi extremes.
Zionism is not exclusive to Jews. Any Arab is welcome to live in Israel (and more than a million do) as long as they are loyal to Zionism, which simply means as long as they support the existence of the State of Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people.
Anti-Semitic attacks in England have increased, I suspect mostly tied to Muslims.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/anti-semitic-hate-crime-attacks-british-jews-assaults-uk-incidents-record-high-cst-research-a7861721.html
You are not fooling anyone by making your “distinction” between Jews and Zionism. That just means you like the “ghetto Jews” who put up with persecution for 2,000 years including expulsion for hundreds of years from your England or at least are willing to tolerate them; but the idea of a strong Jew (closer to the ancient Jews is offensive to you.) Too bad!
You could hardly claim that “B`Tselem” or “Breaking the Silence” are anti-Jewish groups, Jeffrey, they are creations of Israeli Jewish citizens who are seriously concerned at the “Apartheid” strategies implemented as official Zionist policies.
Nor could you claim that Ehud Barak and Yitzhak Yaalon are anti-Jewish, yet they both stated in the Knesset (September 2016) “Israel is becoming and acting like a Fascist State”.
Of course the ideals of the World Zionist Congress are held by many non-Jews in the same way Zionist Ideals are rejected by many, Jews and non-Jews alike.
And the similarities between Nazism and Zionism are very clear: Nazism demanded the re-creation of the Germanic Reich of Emperor Charlemange and the imposition of racial (Aryan) superiority.
Zionism demanded the re-creation of the Kingdom of Israel and the imposition of Jewish superiority. Many Jews were uncomfortable with Zionist demands, then and now.
In the UK, The Community Security Trust, records only anti-Jewish actions. I am repulsed at those perpetrators who are motivated by hatred of a peoples religion, be they Jews, Christians of Muslims – as far as I`m concerned those Semite religions all aim for the same destination by taking different routs.
In the UK to-day anti-Islam crimes hugely outnember anti-Jewish crimes, The “Britain First” organsation supporters are a serious threat to UK Muslims, killing several with one shooting dead the British MP Joe Cox while shouting “Britain First”.
Jews in the late 13th century in England had the special status of “protection of the King” they were declared as “Direct subjects of the King” free from the local feudal lords control. The Church (of Rome) in England was strongly opposed to this status and demanded expulsion. Edward 1st dare not defy the Church so expulsion was imposed.
That said Edward did offer homes and protection to those Jews who converted to Christiany, some did, but off hand I`m not sure of the numbers. But that, Jeffrey was in 1290.
Catholic Mary was Queen of England from 1553 to 1558, during that time she burned several hundred of her subjects, simply because they were Protestants, no Jews in England suffered in that way, or in such numbers.
Elizabeth became Queen on Mary`s death then Catholics were persecuted and killed, and in Europe, Jeffrey, wars between Protestant and Catholic countries occured between 1524 and 1648. While persecution of Jews may have been experience, it was insignificant when compared to Christian victims of persecution- by Christians!
Even in 15th century Spain, the Jewish victims of Spanish persecution were outnumbered by at least 15,000 to 1 by Muslim victims of The Spanish Inquisition.
There is a huge difference, Jeffrey, between Jewish history in it`s context and the Zionist propaganda version contained in the Hasbara archives which is highly selective and totally one sided.
Give your support to Israel by all means, but do it from a factual historical basis.
To be forced to believe that any legitimate criticism of Zionist policy could only be because of ignorant anti-Judaism is simply a result of your self delusion, Jeffrey, and there is really no reason to remain myopic, none at all.
You seem to have been brainwashed by Hollywood movies, Jeffrey, and you clearly have access to the Hasbara propaganda archives.
The Balfour Declaration did not “Call for the creation of a Jewish State”, it`s childish to make such a claim!
Balfour simply stated “A Jewish Home in Palestine” which, for the previous 600 years or so, had been a Vilayet (State or Province) with al-Quds (Jerusalem) as the Liwa (Capital or administration center) under Ottoman occupation, with the Mutasrrifiya (Government) providing a representative to the Turkish Parliament..
(Filistine) Palestine was in existence, for thousands of years befor 1917, it had a postal service, Palestinian stamps, newspapers, railways and a large civil service – Zionist propaganda has obscured that reality from only the ignorant, or those whe have a desperate need to accept a fiction!
Mike, you are the ignorant one. Palestine never existed as an independent political state. It was a geographic region and was part of several different empires including the Ottoman one. Saying it was in existence is like saying South America was in existence.
Balfour called for creation of a Jewish Home in Palestine (which included Gaza and Jordan at that time). It did not call for an Arab Home. Later this promise was whittled down to a Jewish state west of the Jordan only. Later in 1948 it was whittled down even more by the Partition Plan which the Arabs rejected and thus which is void.
So you are wrong. There was never a Palestinian Arab state of Palestine. But there was a Jewish state of Israel.
Balfour stated support for a jewish home in the existing state/province of Palestine, Jeffrey.
In 1919 the Palestinian civil service employed some 15,000 Palestinians, Palestine had a viable government and an efective administration, all that was missing were the Turkish occupiers.
By 1947, 95% of the Palestinian civil service was staffed by European Zionist immigrants, and the day Zionist Israel came into existence, the 5% of Palestinian civil servants were excluded by Zionists.
You are living incloud cuckoo land if you think that any region could exist without Government – if only to collect taxes!
Grow up man! there may be a case for Israel, but it`s foolish to base that case on myths, or smoke and mirors!
Try looking byond the Hasbara headlines!
I said Palestine never existed as an independent Arab state and you just proved me correct. You go back only to 1919 when the former Turkish territory of Palestine was administered by the British and there were local civil servants who were “Palestinian.” Of course, at that time, Palestinian meant Jew and the Arabs were called “Arabs.” The concept of Palestinian Arab nationalism was just beginning at that time but even then no one really claimed there were a separate Palestinian Arab people.
I never said the Palestine region had no government. It had many governments including Jewish, Roman, Byzantine, Turk and British as well as others.
The fact is the Jewish people were entitled to a national home of their own given the thousands of years of persecution at the hands of others. The fact is the most logical place was their ancestral homeland (which only Abbas and lunatics deny was in “Palestine”) and in any event there was no vacant land anymore to put it. So, yes someone had to yield in order for that to be created and let’s face it, the Arabs themselves were Imperialists who conquered it in the 7th century. So, pushing the Arabs out of 0.1% of their empire was only just.
No myths, no smoke, just facts.
And Arabs are excluded from civil service. There are many Arab civil servants in Israel, including judges and politicians.
An Ottoman census of Palestine in 1854, Jeffrey, confirmed that Palestinians consisted of 5% Jewish Palestinians, 15% Christian Palestinians and 80% of Muslim Palestinians.
Look beyond the Hasbara archives, Jeffrey, your support of Israel need not change – just your knowledge of Historical events!
So what? The total population in Palestine was still quite small until the Jews came to develop it. Then the Arabs came in larger numbers. The rest of your post is ridiculous. Palestine was part of an empire, not a state the choose to join a union. Jews were second class citizens along with Christians by Muslim law.
Is`nt the Internet wonderful, Jeffrey!
Palestine is a name first used by the Greek Historian Herodotus in 450 b.c. It was a greek spelling of the Arabic name “Filistine” (No P`s in Arabic). But look it up for yourself!
Egyptian Hieroglyphs over 5,000 years ago, mention “Filistine”. The Torah (Or Old Testament has several mentions of Philistine and Philistines. But look it up for yourself!
According to Joshua 13:3 and Samuel 6:17, the land of the Phistines covers pretty much of what today we call Palestine. But look it up for yourself!
And finally, Jeffrey, David ben Gurion and Yitzhak ben Zvi moth stated many many times, and wrote in their books “The Palestinians are the descendants of the inhabitants of the ancient land of Judea”. But look it up for yourself!
Actually, Jeffrey, they were there long before that. But look it up for yoursef!
Actually, Mike you look it up. Your facts are wrong. The land of the Philistines was basically modern Gaza. The Philistines were a Greek people (not Semitic like the Hebrews and Arabs) and the term comes from the Hebrew word “Peleshet” which means invader. So, no the “Palestinians” have nothing to do with the Arabs except the Romans renamed Jewish Judeia to Palestine (or the Latin equivalent) as a mocking gesture against the Jewish who had been defeated after several revolts.
Yes, you may references to Palestine because that is a reference to the Greek word for the Philistines but there was no country of the Philistines anymore at that time. Their cultures were extinct with little or no trace of it currently.
The land of the Philistines never included pretty much all of Palestine as you claim. The 5 cities of the Philistine princes cover Gaza going up to Ashdod so it was a coastal strip. You are mixing up the Canaanites with the Philistine. The Canaanites held the land of Canaan until conquered by the Hebrews.
You also misunderstand the quotes you cited. I’m not sure either quote is authentic but otherwise the statement is that Palestinians (some of them obviously, not all) could be descendants of the ancient Judeans. That is certainly possible although it would be impossible at this time to identify them. But those Jews became Arabized many century ago and no longer claim or acknowledge they are Jews. Instead, they claim they are Canaanites, which of course is ridiculous.
So my facts are accurate. The bottom line is there were scattered Arabs here and there in the area of ancient Israel but it was not until the 7th Century that the Arabs invaded and conquered Palestine (renamed from Judea by the Romans) and gradually Arabized and Islamized the people except for some hold-outs including some Jews and Christians.
45clive
You have imbibed Arab lies very well repeating their duplicitous unsubstantiated claims.
In fact it was Britain that breached the terms of the Mandate it had been operating on since 1920 pursuant to the San Remo Conference and the Treaty of Sevres – when it agreed in 1922 to the insertion of article 25 in the formal League of Nations document restricting the right of the Jews to reconstitute the Jewish National Home in just 22% of Palestine leaving the remaining 78% for the exclusive use of the Palestinian Arabs – today called Jordan.
The Arabs rejected that 78% in 1922 and continue to do so in 2018. They wanted – and still want – the entire 100%.
When they are happy to accept about 80% the Jewish-Arab conflict can be resolved very quickly.
Read “The Gun and the Olive Branch” (1977 and updated in 1984 and 2003) by David Hirst.
In the late seventies I spent some time in Jordan (and Cairo). A close friend worked at the British Council in Amman. He introduced me to a number of Palestinians. My observation was that the Jordanian Army was Bedouin, but the bureaucracy and merchant class were Palestinians, living in refugee camps generationally. Most Palestinians I met were well educated professionals who were civilized to a fault. I would feel fortunate indeed to have Palestinians as neighbours and friends.
You cannot be classed as a refugee if you are still living in a different part of the same country in which you were born. Jordan was part of Palestine and even the PLO maintain that position in 2018.
If you want to quote something from David Hirst please do so. Your comment is entirely meaningless.
The Balfour Declaration, 45clive, never invisioned an “Exclusive Jewish Homeland” in Palestine, rather it gave support to Jewish immigration in numbers that could be “Economically accommodated” – “It being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine”
Non-Zionist Jews involved in the Balfour negotiations were concerned that Jews who were established in Britan (and the USA) and had no need, or desire, to live in Palestine may suffer as a result of Zionist excesses, hence the final (Balfour) sentence “Or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country”.
Zionism is a European Nationalistic Racist Political movement, no different from the European Nationalistic Racist Political movement of the Nazi Party, particularly Zionisms emulation of the Nazi racist superiority ideals.
Judaism is a fine old religion, the foundations on which the two later Semite religions of Christianity and Islam were built.
Zionism hides behind the skirts of a respected religion, something Nazism never attempted.
Zionism is a disgrace to Judaism – Zionist Israel brings shame upon Jews, the large majority of whom do not have any desire to live on occupied Palestinian land.
You show your Jew-hating credentials with this statement:
“Zionism is a disgrace to Judaism – Zionist Israel brings shame upon Jews, the large majority of whom do not have any desire to live on occupied Palestinian land.”
Half of the world’s Jews now live in Israel. The numbers are bound to increase if Jew-hating comments like yours are not treated with the contempt they deserve.
Judea and Samaria(West Bank) and Gaza are not “occupied Palestinian land”. They are the last remaining 5% of the territory comprised in the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine where sovereignty remains unallocated between the two successor states to the Mandate – Israel and Jordan.
Acknowledging this reality is the key to ending the 100 years old Arab-Jewish conflict.
Judaism, David, is a fine old religion and the foundation on which the two later Semite religions of Christianity and Islam were built.
Judaism, Christianity and Islam, all venerate the God of Abraham.
Of the 15 million of so followers of Judaism, only some 6 million, of mostly European origin, live in Israel, 9 million Jews live in their own respective homelands, integrated (as a minority) into those societies which clearly they prefer, particulary when they are subject to great encouragement to emigrate to live on occupied Palestinian land.
Indeed the last published immigration figures published by the Israeli Government in 2015 showed a net fall of 89,000 Jewish immigrants to Israel, presumably those 89,000 preferred to live elsewhere.
You are clearly unaware of the Knesset statements (September 2016) of Ehud Barak and Moshe Yaalon, when they stated “(Zionist) Israel is acting like and becoming a Fascist State”.
When two leading members of Israeli society compare Zionist Israel with Nazi Germany the world should be concerned.
Judaism does not demand land exclusive to Jews – Zionism does!
Hitlers Nazi party promised to restore the Reich of Emperor Charlamange. Zionism demanded the restoration of David and Solomons Israel.
Both the Nazi Party and the World Zionist Congress demanded racially pure nations, both Nazism and Zionism went to great lengths to achieve their aims.
To-day there are 5 million UN registered Palestinian refugees, all denied the right of return totheir homeland – simply because they are non-Jewish, despite Israel promising, as a condition of UN membership, to allow the return of displaced Palestiians.
Hitler was a Christian (Catholic) and Nazi Germany was a Christian country (mostly Protestants), critics of Nazism are never accused of being anti-Christian.
Your assumption that valid criticism of Zionism are anti-Jewish is a simplistic and childish claim, one that borders on paranoia that is designed to deflect from the reality of Zionisms Genocidal Apartheid policy.
As is the claim that “Israel” is the homeland of Judaism. There is overwhelming historicalevidence that “the Hebrews originated in Iraq, when itwas Egypt, obviously! Abraham was born in the ancient city of Ur, close to to-days Basra.
That would make Abraham and the Hebrews what to-day we would call Arabs, or Semites if you prefer the 19th century definition.
One thing is certain – they were not Europeans!
Your continuing rabid and hate-filled comments about the Jewish people and the billions of non-Jews world wide who believe that the Jewish people is entitled to one independent State in this world show you are not interested in seeing the Jewish-Arab conflict resolved. Wallow in your hatred. The Nazis would have welcomed you with open arms. I certainly do not.
The 1919 USA appointed King-Crane Commission, sent to examine the possibility of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, reported that “such a proposal was not viable”. For two main reasons; “Such a State would require the removal of the intrinsic Palestinian population, and could only be sustained by force of arms”
A codicil letter included with the report, expressed concern that; “Were such a State to be created it would require a permanent USA guarantee of Financial, Military and Diplomatic support”.
Today in Israel there are some 6 million Zionist Jews of mostly European origin and 5 million UN registered Palestinian refugees, all denied the right of return to their homeland, simply because theyare non-Jewish.
Today Zionist Israel is in violation of at least 79 United Nations resolutions- an all time record.
The USA has vetoed a further 31 UN Security Council Resolutions critial of Zionist Israel – an all time record.
The USA, since 1972, has threatened to veto a further 42 UN Security Council Resolutions critical of Zionist Israel, so preventing debate – an all time record.
In 1980 a UN Security Council Resolution declared the Israeli annexation of Jeruaslem as “Null and Void” under international law.
In 1981 a UN Secuity Council Resolution declared that the Zionist Israeli annexation of Syria`s Golan Heights as “Null and Void” under international law.
In 1990 a UN Security Council Resolution declared that the Iraqi annexation of Kuwait was “Null and Void” under international law.
For the third resolution, but not the first two, the USA insisted in fully upholding international law.
Arabs have long known that the USA applies two versions of international law – one for Zionist Israel a quite seperate one for non-Zionist Israel.
There is little doubt that a country of some 323 million has imposed it`s will on some 400 million Arabs (and some 80 million Iranians) simply because it has had the power to do so.
Sooner or later a country of some 1.3 billion people will emerge as the new superpower – and China publishes maps that make no mention of Israel, instead they show “Palestinian territories”.
Britain had a vast colonial empire, created and maintained by military superiority, when Britains military strengh evaporated, so did Britains colonial empire – it`s delusional for Zionist Israel, and the USA, to assume things will be different for them – it won`t!
Let those Palestinian refugees return to their homeland and treat Palestinians living in Zionist Israel as equals and Zionist Israel may have a chance – but it won`t be Zionist in that case – and there lies the fundemental problem.
More rehashing of supposed grievances and unrealistic proposals do not advance the prospects of peace – only ensure the perpetuation of the conflict.
That certainly seems to be the intent of your comments.
We are talking about dividing a piece of land the size of Delaware known as Judea and Samaria (West Bank) and Gaza between Israel and Jordan.
Get realistic for a change.