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France, Turkey, and the Armenian Genocide

Raffi Hovannisian (Photo courtesy of the author)

Raffi Hovannisian (Photo courtesy of the author)

YEREVAN — On February 28, the Constitutional Council of the French Republic struck down a bill, previously enacted by its legislature, that would have made it a crime to deny the Armenian Genocide.  In all events, we respect the law of France and the will of its people.

What befell the Armenian nation in 1915 was more than genocide, more than holocaust.  It was not only the premeditated taking of human lives.  It was the collective murder of a nation, a culture, a civilization, and a time-honored way of life.

Schools, churches, hospitals, academies, institutions, public and private properties—which had belonged to the Armenians for millennia—were wiped off the map, destroyed, or otherwise expropriated.  The Armenian Genocide was the Young Turk regime’s comprehensive and violent dispossession, unprecedented in its evil and effect, of the Armenian nation.

It was the killing of a Homeland.

Reconciliation between the Turkish and Armenian nation-states must, and will, take place based on the triumph of truth, however terrible, and the delivery of justice anchored in earnest remorse, meaningful restitution, and a guaranteed reconnection between the Armenian people and their patrimony.

To this end, we remember our martyrs, salute all who prevent and punish crimes against humanity, and await Turkey’s true redemption.

Raffi Hovannisian, independent Armenia’s first minister of foreign affairs, currently chairs the Heritage Party and represents it in Parliament

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About the Author

Raffi Hovannisian

Raffi K. Hovannisian, independent Armenia’s first foreign minister (1991-92), currently chairs the Heritage Party and represents it in Parliament. 
  • Vardan

    The author forgot to mention that in 1914-1915, i.e. just a half a year before what he calls an “armenian genocide”, Russian army advanced into Anatolia and occupied its eastern part. Well, no one complained, it was a war and Turks honestly and honorably fought this war with all the rules pertaining to wars. But Armenian irregulars together with local Armenian population hiding behind the Russian army’s back chose to engage in a different business – they literally wiped off the occupied territory of its entire Turkish civilian population, which was nearly 2.5m people.
    Mr. Hovannisian is right giving his evaluation of this barbarity – it was not just a genocide, it was more than genocide, more than Holocaust! Two and a half million massacred Turkish civilians in Van, Bitlis, Erzerum, Kars, not to count other regions, killed by armed Armenians – armed by Russians, by the way. What was it if not genocide?
    What Young Turks did – they saved the survivors of the completion of the genocide. They removed the entire unloyal Armenian population (and shall we call it “criminal population”, considering that collaboration and participation in a genocide is a crime?) out of the territory. Did they do the right thing? DEFINITELY! By resettling Armenians far from the war zone they 1) retaliated (for which they had every moral right, espeially after the perpetration of the Turkish genocide by the Armenians) and 2) saved the remaining very few survivors in the region from being killed by Armenians.
    Mr. Hovanissyan must stop complaining of the lesson that he and his countrymen, who continue to cry about the “Arm.genocide”, failed to learn: behaive yourself and you will enjoy the adequate behavior towards you. If you do the wrong things, be ready for the response.
    So, even if you can call the Armenian losses a “genocide”, fine, call it. But then this “genocide” was an adequate response to the real and much greater genocide that preceeded and claimed 5 times more lives of innocent Turks than the nunmber of Armenian deaths.
    If the author speaks about restitutions and apologies, then his country must pay 5 times more to Turkey for the killing of those 2.5 m Turkish civilians. And apologize for Turkish genocide!

    • Jay Polly

      Nice fiction you write “vardan”. You play fast and loose with facts and figures. This smells of Turkish government orchestrated lies.

  • http://www.usazeris.org Bedir Memmedli

    For some European countries, especially France, Armenian “genocide” is nothing but a pressure weapon against Turkey. It is strange that this “genocide” was never on most of their agendas until Turkey started seeking a membership with EU. If France is so sincere, why can’t it recognize crimes committed by Armenians themselves against innocent Turkish and Azeri civilians (e.g. Van revolt of 1915, Khojaly massacre of 1992, etc.)?

  • Zaur Hasanov

    Completely agree with Vardan. One shouldn’t forget about dozens of innocent Turkish diplomats killed back in 80ss in Europe and the US, terrorist plots against Turkish population in Europe, and bloody crimes conducted in Nagorno-Karabakh territory of Azerbaijan recently. Big and small cities were looted, civilians massacred and they ended up off the map. Khodjali, Quslu, Malibayli, etc names of few. The world should know a true face of Armenia and the Armenians.

  • Jeffrey Werbock

    I have to take exception to the wording in this article which describes the tragedy that befell the Armenian people living in Ottoman Turkey during the period of WWI as some ‘more’ than a genocide, ‘more’ than a holocaust.

    What could be ‘more’ than genocide, ‘more’ than a holocaust. The use of this qualifier ‘more’ in this context makes no sense and calls into question the main point of writing the article, to draw attention to this historical matter. Instead, the language invites criticism, ridicule, and lays the foundation for doubting all the claims made by the author and others of his political ideological persuasion.

    Furthermore, the insertion of the word holocaust in this article is even more questionable. That word, often capitalized Holocaust, a proper noun, is by common consensus used to describe the catastrophe that befell the Jews and other ‘undesirables’ of Europe, perpetrated by the Nazi regime of the Third Reich. This usage of the word holocaust in this context implies that the fate which befell the Armenians of Ottoman Turkey is somehow equivalent to the fate that befell the Jews of Europe (1933 – 1945). But the Jews of Europe were not persecuted for siding with the invading Soviet Army to help bring down the Third Reich, in hopes of building a homeland for themselves in Bavaria, for example. So I don’t see the comparison as valid, and I believe there will be millions of other Jewish people who would similarly object to the use of the word holocaust as it is used in this article.

  • Kurd

    Again this armenian propaganda. Journals must really check facts before they publish articles. I agree with Vardan, it was genocide in Ottoman Empire – genocide performed by Armenians against civilians of Turkish / Kurdish and something what I did not know before – even against Jewish population. According to Ottoman archives more than 2 mln Turks and Kurds and more tat 10 000 Jews were killed by Armenians, when Armenians tried to do ethnical cleansing and wipe out everyone who lived on the land which Armenians wanted. To that one can add the ethnical cleansing of Kurds and Azeris in Armenia in 1987, and mass murder of ethnic Azerbaijanis and Kurds 1988-1993 in Azerbaijan. Khojaly massaker is recognized as genocide in many countries.

  • whatever

    Armenian lobby try to pump so much money in the fake “genocide”, while Armenians in Armenia are starving . But of course, Armenian lobby do not care about that. Dressed in suits, enjoying by California’s sun, robbing Americans http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/17/us/17armenian.html– why would they care about their compatriots which do not want to leave in Armenia because the life there is unbearable.

  • Yusif Aleskerov

    Pathetic article and even more pathetic author. How can events in Eastern Anatolia even be compared to the Holocaust? or as the author puts it “more than holocaust”??? Holocaust is holocaust because there was international tribunale and a decesion of the court.
    The way armenians are pushing for their so called genocide is not through the courts (becuase they know quite well their arguments will fail in the courts) but by bribing politicians and pushing ridiculos bills through parliaments.
    What happenned in Eastern Anatolia in 1915 is well known. Backed by russian army and armed by it, armenian militaty bands conducted ethnic cleaning of the territory from its turkish and kurdish population, burnign villages, killing old and young, women and kids, all while turkish army was busy fighting in the west of the country.
    Facing the neccessity to deal with massacres conducted by armenian gangs in the east of the country Turks deported armenian population from the area.
    How can you even compare this to killing of innocent, armless jews in Europe in 1930s? What a perverted logic and mind can even compare these events?

  • Perviz Soltanov

    In 1914-1915 Armenians killed and forced away more than 2 million Turks and Kurds in Eastern Anatolia also because of the following reason: to attract portions of the Ottoman army in the Western Front to the Eastern front, to exhaust their resources and create huge logistical problems. Eventually, Russians wanted Ottomans out of the war, in a similar way that Germans wanted Russians out of the war and secretly supported Lenin’s cause for that matter. For this purpose Russians used Armenians. In order to carry out this horrible task, Armenians acted especially ruthlessly this ethnic cleansing, reaching the level of crimes against humanity. There were numerous reports Armenian irregulars burned children in fire, cut open the wombs of pregnant women and killed their babies in front of their eyes and many similar things. Believe it or not, most of these reports were true for the following reasons. Armenian irregulars were relatively small forces compared to, say, Russian or Ottoman armies. In order to accomplish their task of attracting Ottoman armies from the Western front to the Eastern front, they had to convince the Ottoman public opinion and decision makers that there is a good reason for that. Therefore, they chose to be as brutal as possible in killing innocent civilians, used all of their “creativity” in order to attract the Ottoman army. Otherwise the Ottoman army would not come. This is a well-known military tactic from the history. Remember Mongolian brutalities? The same reason: how can a small force create such a horror in order to reach the goal. Examples can be extended. Once the Ottoman army reached the Eastern front from the West, the Armenian irregulars disappeared and you know the rest of the history.
    So, this is one of the aspects of 1914-1915 events, though a very important aspect.

  • Benbanaste

    “…was more than genocide, more than holocaust…” How can Mr. Hovannissian claim such a non-sense? Jews in Germany never tried to dislocate the country they were living in. There was never an armed upraising by German-Jewish militias. Please Mr. Hovannissian do not mix the Holocaust and the 1915 events. It would be an insult to the Jews!

  • Sarah

    To all those Turkish who speaks here about 2 million killed Turkishs and Kurds in the territory of Anatolia. Lie and insolence will not help you. How funny and absurd are your lies. Even if you not consider historical papers and every documentation and photos and videos and everything that was said by western politicians, European missioners(some of whom killed themselves being unable to see all that horror of massacre) and historicans and newspapers of those years from 1914-1923, just using your logical thinking you would conclude how funny are all your talks about 2,5 million Turkishs and Kurdishs killed by Armenians. How could 1,5 million Armenians who didn’t even have normal weapons, who was disarmed, whose men were taken by Turkishs to die in Der Zor before women, elderly and children wee taken there, who were living under suppression of Turkish governance, massacre Turkishs and Kurdishs from Anatolia if there weren’t even half of that quantity of Turkishs and Kurdishs living there. 1,5 million Armenians were killed all around the Turkey, in all regions where there were living. And in addition how could that happen that after killing of 2,5 million Turkishs you could continue to live there, and we not. What about hundred thousands of Greeks who were killed by you? How many Turkishs were massacred by them? And how many Turkishs were massacred by Kurdishs that you are trying to exterminate now? You used Kurdishs in Genocide against Armenians, lying them that you will give them Anatoly for they could fund a country there, and they believed you. Now you are trying to exterminate them as well but it was your predator’s fault that they didn’t take seriously them then, otherwise they would massacre Kurdishs as they did with Greeks and Armenians. But unfortunately they thought that Kurdishs weren’t as powerful and weren’t an obstacle for them in their plans of Panturkism. Now it happened that Kurdishs became so many that became obstacle for you, and they want to take some part of your country to be independent of you in Anatoly. So you try to exterminate them as well but unfortunately for you the world is different now from what it was in the beginning of 20-th century in terms of mass media. Whatever you do now is fixed by media.
    What about Van and other places where protective battles were held by Armenians who were believing that they could save their homelands by fighting, as they were not united in that fights which should be held all around the country,those small fights couldn’t help much except helping some of the population to evacuate before Turkishs could massacre them though most of them eventually died in fights and after when were caught by Turkishs. As to Russians, they didn’t proceed further than Kars, and if they were to proceed, perhaps we could protect our homeland eventually.If 2 millions of Turkishs were anyway be killed, now we would have our homeland saved and continuing to live there. So what now, will you say that Russians were sponsoring massacre of Turkish population? Then demand them to recognize the Genocide made by them towards you nation. And why you began to speak about that now, after almost a century, why not before? Why you didn’t fight that Russian Army that killed your 2,5 million Turks then. Your lies are funny. And what did the Western countries thinking about the massacre of 2,5 million Turks by Russians and Armenians, why no one spoke or wrote about that? You are miserable in your lies. Unfortunately for us Armenians, we were always a peaceful nation living according to our beliefs of humanity and never could be able to kill the civilian populations of other nationality just because they were of other nationality or religion. And unfortunately the history shows that mostly those nations who were murderers and almost exterminated other nations in the territory they wanted to live,built powerful empires on the lands of other, more civilized nations of those times. Turkishs did that started from the times of Byzantium and continue to do that to Kurdishs until one will hold them and say “Stop, murderers”.

    • Agu

      Typical hysterical propaganda by an Armenian who is confronted by well-funded facts, with apparent elements of fascistic discourse. Why do you deny that Russians were primary players in those events and used Armenians as pawns? Why do you hide Armenian brutality and mass killings against Turks and Kurds prior to 1915? These are historical facts, too, and till you will not accept them, the curse of all those millions of innocent Turks and Kurds killed by Armenians prior to 1915 events will be upon Armenians. Because your opponents has less than 1% of unabashed propaganda machine of Armenians, will you deny every historical fact?

  • Sarah

    And what about brutalities that you attribute to Armenians, those were acts that were performed by Turkishs and Kurdishs towards Armenians (cutting the wombs of pregnant women and putting the fetuses on the top of their bayonets, raping, etc.)and not the vice versa and everyone who is somehow familiar with history knows that. Armenians never were a nation that acts brutal, but history knows many facts about Turkishs acting so. Remember, there are documentation, videos, newspapers of those times, witnesses who wrote about it in American and European newspapers, and don’t continue such kind of stupid discussions based on the principle to say the bigger and more frightening, soul-destroying lie. There is no doubt what has happened, the only problem is in politics, that they don’t want to accept the truth and punish the crime, as Turkey is economically powerful and there is mutual economical benefit not to do that. The other aim that Turkish government is following for now is to convince and lie to Turkish nation so that they continue to live in unawareness about the crime made by their predators as they did decades.

  • Khojaly survivor

    Sarah, dont ascribe to Turks your own traditional armenian crimes. Cutting pregnant women’s wombs is exactly what I personally witnessed when I fled Khojaly 20 years ago. Armenians cut the womb of one Azeri pregnant women, put the unborn baby next to her corpse and pushed into her body the cut head of a man. I saw it with my own eyes as our family tried to escape Khojaly. Then they killed my 5-year old sister, mother and took me and my father hostage. It was in the forest just outside Khojaly. So, don’t pretend you represet an angel nation here. Your ancestors did the same barbarity in 1914. Next day they burnt my father alive in Askeran in front of my eyes. I was exchanged to one Armenian bandit who was taken prisoner, although I would prefer to die and have that bastard killed too. So, please stop your tales here.

    • Sarah

      So if you were in Khojaly when they were doing so why you didn’t prevented that? Or you saw corps. Stupids, go and read books instead of faking facts.

    • Sarah

      Before speaking about Khojaly (which is a falcification alltogether), remember about Genocide made by Azerbajanyans against Armenians in Baku and Sumgait. here is the link.

  • http://www.khojaly.org/ Khojaly survivor

    Sarah, it is you and your country who is falsifies history and spreading hysterical historical lies. For example, the blood-freezing stupidity that 613 people from Khojaly “were killed by Azeris themselves”. For your information, among those 613 were my little 5-year old sister Aynur and my both parents. What a cynical stupidity your country is saying. Your state propaganda is capable to produce only for this sort of cheap crap that only Armenians can believe and swallow. Would you feel nice if I tell you that “1.5m” Armenians were killed by Armenians themselves in the vicinity of Yerevan beyond the Turkish army’s control? Would you feel nice if I tell you that all the killed Armenians were not Armenians but Turks whom Armenians previously took hostage and then killed to forge the genocide myth? Would you be happy to hear this sort of BS? Now imagine what sort of a crap is the attempt to attribute the Khojaly Genocide to Azeris themselves and portray Armenians as “innocent angels”.

    In 1915, your nation failed the avanture of creating a state on the bones of the innocent Turks and Kurds, so get some courage to fail with dignity. Otherwise, who believes your lies except yourselves? No one!

    To answer your question, how come Turks after the 1914 genocide still live there, well, I will enlighten you: they do NOT live there anymore in a scale they used to constitute before the war. All this area is now populated mostly by Kurds. After having suffered the 1914 genocide, Turkish population never could revive and reach the pre-WWI demography. Thanks to your “courageous” ancestors who had no guts to fight the army and prefer women and children to the army.

    Not a single rifle was in the Turkish family when Armenians were killing them during the occupation, because all the weapons were in the front line trenches. It was Armenians who were fully armed, by Russians by the way. And they were armed by Russia well before the war had started. There are tons of documents in the European archives that prove that Armenians were preparing for the genocide against their Turkish neighbors well in advance. I am sorry that your history teacher never taught you this part of history.

    When Turks were bravely defending their Motherland in the frontlines of WWI and dying in Gallipoli and other places like real men, Armenians conscripts were cowardly deserting from the army en masse, like rats from the ship, returning to Anatolia with arms they were entrusted and looting Turkish families, killing Muslim babies and women behind Russian army’s back. So typical of them and so perfectly described by Pushkin a century prior to that!

    You refer to newspapers, reports of the missioners, eye-witnessed, survivors, documents, etc, but you conveniently select only those that testify about what happened AFTER the Turkish genocide. But there are even more documents – and thank God they are being published now – which prove that Turks responded for what Armenians did to the Turks. Turks did nothing more or new to Armenians that Armenians did not do to them. Sarah, please do not deny the Armenian crimes of 1914, otherwise you will look very ridiculous. Armenians were not angels, they did terrible things, they killed more Turks than counted their own dead and they started FIRST! And got the well-deserved response.

    Also, do not spread propaganda stuff that Armenians lived under Turkish suppression in the Ottoman Empire. BS! It was not a suppression, they enjoyed all the rights.

    You write: “How could 1,5 million Armenians who didn’t even have normal weapons, who was disarmed, whose men were taken by Turkishs to die in Der Zor before women, elderly and children were taken there, who were living under suppression of Turkish governance, massacre Turkishs and Kurdishs from Anatolia if there weren’t even half of that quantity of Turkishs and Kurdishs living there.”

    First, they had all the weapons, Russians supplied them weaponry well before the war had started, but for the different purpose, not for killing the civilian population. Second, when you are armed and your enemy is not, then statistics does not matter. Third, exactly because the number of Armenian population did not exceed the number of Turks and Kurds, Armenians decided to kill them all to become majority in the areas where they wanted to create their own state. In the area with Turkish majority they would have not been able to create a homeland. They needed to become majority. How to achieve that? So simple – just go and kill all the civilians while their husbands, fathers and brothers are far away fighting the enemy. And that’s what your ancestors did. Fourth, the total number of Armenians in 1914 in the Ottoman Empire was, according to the official census, 1.2m. How could 1.5m be killed? The real number of Armenians who perished during the resettlement was 600.000. Exaggerations won’t help you.
    BTW, Turks exaggerate too. Armenians killed 623.000 Turkish civilians in Eastern Anatolia.

    You speak about Greek massacres. Open the history text books and see how many Turks were killed in Greece and Thrakia!

    The so-called Van “self-defense” story is a good propaganda story. Yet, it is silent about its main component – killing the entire Muslim population of the Van villayet before Turkish army rushed to rescue the survivors. This is your “heroic self-defense”. And what did you expect from the Turks who came to save the residents? Candy?

    You write: “If 2 millions of Turkish were anyway be killed, now we would have our homeland saved and continuing to live there. So what now, will you say that Russians were sponsoring massacre of Turkish population?”

    Well, Sarah, before Turkish army liberated the areas and prosecuted the criminals, Armenians did enjoy what you call Turk-free “homeland”. Leaglly, it was an occupied part of the Ottoman Empire. And no, Russians were not sponsoring Turkish massacres. They fought the honest war and they only sponsored Armenian revolt, but not the massacres. They did not think that Armenians would engage in a genocide instead of doing what they were asked to do – fighting Turkish army. Russian generals even wanted to save some Muslim civilians, but the scale of the genocide was so massive that Russians could not do anything. They were appalled. By the way, lots of testimonies about the Turkish genocide belong exactly to Russian generals and eyewitnesses, they all are recorded in archives. They are being published too.

    “Then demand them to recognize the Genocide made by them towards you nation. And why you began to speak about that now, after almost a century, why not before?”

    I will tell you why . For the same reason why you began to speak about your so-called “Arm.genocide” just 30 years ago, and not immediately after WWI. Turks thought this one-sided historical idiocy will some time stop, but they were wrong – you never stopped. So, be ready to hear the other part of the story that your dishonest historians and lobbyists prefer to hide.

    You argue: “Why you didn’t fight that Russian Army that killed your 2,5 million Turks then. Your lies are funny.”

    Honey, you do not listen to what I am saying. It was not Russians, it was Armenians who were killing peaceful Turks and Kurds. Russians were fighting the war honestly, against the Turkish army and not against the Turkish pregnant women and babies. And Turkish army, by the way, did fight against Russian army. And defeated it in many occasions and battles.

    Then you say: “And what did the Western countries thinking about the massacre of 2,5 million Turks by Russians and Armenians, why no one spoke or wrote about that?”

    Again, not by Russians, but by Armenians only. Second, they do write books and get threatened by your ASALA terrorists. Bernard Lewis, Stanford Show, Norman Stone, Georges de Malleville, Justin McCarthy, Thomas Golts, to name just a few. ASALA threw a bomb inside prof. Show’s house for his honest book.

    “You are miserable in your lies. Unfortunately for us Armenians, we were always a peaceful nation living according to our beliefs of humanity and never could be able to kill the civilian populations of other nationality just because they were of other nationality or religion.”

    Oh, tell me about this, to the Khojaly genocide survivor whose little sister and mother were killed in front of my eyes in the forest just outside Khojaly and whose father was burnt alive in Askeran in front of my eyes. Tell me about the your nation’s “tolerance”. I want to know “more” about your “peacefullness”.

    “And unfortunately the history shows that mostly those nations who were murderers and almost exterminated other nations in the territory they wanted to live, built powerful empires on the lands of other, more civilized nations of those times.”

    Sarah, do not speak about the “civilized nations” if you mean yourself.

    • Sarah

      Khojaly survivor, your name even implyes how you lie. If you were in Khojaly you would know what happened there really and once again read this link http://khojalu.net/ and a few historical books with well funded arguments, before writing these stupid things here.

    • Sarah

  • tannenbaum

    Armenian propaganda always compares Holocaust with so called “armenian genocide”. I would like to remind to Armenians about a book which was published in Armenia and it was considered to be so important that it was suggested to introduce this book to schools to teach Armenian children the following:
    “The greatest falsification in human history is the myth of Holocaust. no one was killed in gas chambers. There were no gas chambers.”

    The book is called “National system” and it is written by ethnic Armenian Romen Yepiskoposyan.

    • Sarah

      No one knows your Romen Yepiskoposyan. Many people write many things, it doesn’t prove anything that you say.

  • tannenbaum

    Besides many Armenians helped to Nazi to perform Holocaust, for ex general Dro and Armenian Nazi battalions.
    Ethnic Armenians were in league with Hitler in the WWII, on his premise to grant themselves government if, in return, the Armenians would help exterminate Jews.
    1. Twelve Armenian battalions served the Nazi army 1942. Armenians wore German uniforms with an armband in the Dashnag colours red-blue-orange and the inscription _Armenien._ (Joachim Hoffmann,_Dies Ostlegionen 1941-1943, Turkotataren, 1976, p. 172)
    2. The Armenian SS unit was formed following a directive of Himmler in
    the beginning of December 1944. The Armenian Liaison Staff actively recruited volunteers (United States National Archives, T-175, Roll 167, pp 2700157/2700158, SS-Headquarters, Amtsgruppe D – Oststelle, see _Documents 3 and 4) and by February 1945 a cavalry formation of twenty thousand Armenians was integrated into the larger Caucasian Waffen-SS unit. The Armenian SS formation was employed last in Klagenfurt
    ( Georg Tessin,_Verbaende und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS im zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945, Volume 14, Armenian Legion/Waffen SS).
    In addition to this exclusively Armenian unit, Nazi Armenians also served in the thirty eight other SS divisions, one of them even in the elite _Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler.

    • Sarah

      How can you be so stupid, the number of Generals and Heroes and victims of Second World War far exceeds the number of those for the nations from other Soviet countries (compared to the whole population of each country), as they knew if Germany would win, Turkey would kill all Armenians in perhaps a month afterwards, as you Turkishs were with Germany in Second World War, and how you are so stupid to believe that anyone from Soviet Union would fight against it in Stalin years. And where from we found those 12 battalions, where you found documentation about that. As I said whatever you write here is the culmination of human stupidity and impudence. You are all fools as continue to held this competition of words of nonsense and stupid impudent lies.

  • tannenbaum

    It is known from archives that armenians massacred jews 1915, but not so many people know that armenians massacred jews even in Azerbaijan. There are mass graves in Azerbaijan of those Jews who were killed by armenians.
    That is why Armenians want to have this law which will forbid the denial of so called “genocide” 1915 – they know that everyone will find out the truth if independent research will be done. And the truth is: armenians are guilty of genocide against Turks/Kurds/Jews in Ottoman empire. That is why Armenia does not want to open archives -because the world will find out about Dro, Andronik, Daschnaks, Njdeh o.s.v.

  • Sarah

    In Khojaly all twentysomething or thirtysomething azerbaijanians were killed by the azerbaijanian army, Armenians left a road and said that they will begin actions in Khojalu months before, and they didn’t killed any one of the peaceful azeri. If they were killed because no one evacuated them and they didn’t wanted to leave during the war, it’s not a genocide. Don’t lie, it will not give you any benefit, only the laugh of those who knows the truth. Anyway, you are so stupid, that it’s impossible even to try to make you understand something. Where are documentation about those 2 million, why no one spoke about it 100 years ago. How we couldn’t maintain the country if we killed and exciled all it’s population and how happened that after that the number of Armenians decreased so dramatically and relative number of Kurdishs and Turkishs became more. What about Greek, Assyrinans and other nations living in your territory then, how many turks were killed by them. I’m not going to offer you excuses for nonsense in what you accusing Armenians, which never happened and is so stupid lie that even logically thinking adult person can exclude that as a possibility, not saying about absence of any documentation. Your stupidity in addition with insolence to lie doesn’t recognize limits. Read some of the documentation about Armenian Genocide written by many authorities of those years, before writing this stupidity. Your position is a very weak position:to reflect what we have said about Armenian Genocide into opposite. Army was in the hands of Turkey don’t forget it. No Armenian had the right to keep weapon or protect themselves, men were taken to the “war”, that is they took all possible weapons that they would have and took most of Armenian men to Der Zor where they were killed. That what you write here is such a nonsnense as to say that Jewishs and others killed by fascists in the Second World War could protect themselves and kill even more German soldiers than Jewishs were killed. Someone who will say something like this will be considered insane, so how you can think even that every 1 killed Armenian could kill 2-3 Turkish, even Armenian neonates, children, old invalids could kill?
    What concerning rebellions in Van and other places, they were suppressed by Turkishs. You try to say that “naive” Russian army which wasn’t so rich and didn’t care for Armenians that much would spend so much finances for they would resist Turkishs, and why it didn’t happened, Turkey was in the number of loser countries of First World War, if Russia would be so “generous” to finance our fights against Turkey, which of course didn’t happened (they had other problems) our homeland would belong to us. I will not add anything more no matter what stupid and insolent lies you will write here. Because to answer you is to admit that there could be even a small chance of sense in what you write here. Get to know your history before writing something, don’t be such an ignoramus. Here is the link for Khojaly. http://khojalu.net/ read it and then try again to make all this clawnery here with the “genocide of turkishs” invented perhaps some years ago. You even don’t care to invent other historical facts, you reflect what was said about Armenian Genocide during all the century just after what happened only changing there the name Armenia for Turkey and vice versa.Again, link for Khojaly facts
    http://khojalu.net/.

  • Sarah

    What about Dro, Andronik, Daschnaks, Njdeh, they were all trying to protect Armenians in fights and amssacres held by Turks.

  • http://xocali.net Jacob

    The extent racist Turks lie here has no limits it seems. How can one base there argument on total fabrications and lies…only a racist Turks could achieve, as witnessed here.

    To the lying Turkish cowards: if the fictions you write you want it to have any validity, besides beinbg verbal crapping, write a book,about your mythical lies, especially the part where Armenians have supposedly have killed Jews in Turkey and Azerbaijan, and god knows where. Get your books peer reviewd and get a publisher.Otherwise you know where to stuff your lies.

    • Sarah

      Well said.

  • George

    the turkis/azeri comments here are yet another confirmation that the genocide of Armenians is still “work in progress”… some things don’t change even in 100 years – and the West is complicit in this by cowing to regular turkish pressure and azeri bullying

  • David

    It’s funny how Turkey SCREAMS that it’s against freedom of speech if France had made it a law to deny the Armenian Genocide, but yet, it is against the law to speak about it in Turkey.

    It’s funny how Turkey tells France not to get involved with the history of Turkey and Armenia, but yet Turkey VIOLATES INTERNATIONAL LAW, by blockaded the border of Armenia because of the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

  • Abbas

    Well, Turkey can close border to anyone to whom they want. But France can’t accept such a law as Armenian “Genocide” due to it’s own citizens.

    From Turkish part they have organized a air planes _Istanbul – Yereven – Istanbul. So.. let us not discuss it. INternationally Turkey is doing all correct.

  • Nejla

    The Armenians (and their friends in France) equate their suffering with that of the Jews. They say that it is not fair that those who deny the Holocaust are punished but those who deny the alleged Armenian genocide are not punished.

    Perhaps the French constitutional court got it right: The Jewish Holocaust was validated by the Nuremberg Trials. On the other hand, there is no international court verdict that recognizes the events of 1915 as genocide. They remain tragic events that happened to both sides during the civil war that the Armenians started over a piece of land. You have to prove that there was an intention to eliminate an ethnic group. Otherwise the tragic deaths of all the civilians in any war can easily be categorized as genocide — such as the dropping of the atom bombs that killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese by the Americans.

    Nejla

    • Jerry Vee

      The Genocide of Armenians was, like the Holocaust at the Nuremberg Trials, validated at the Istanbul Trials of 1919. See the recent book (“Judgment at Istanbul”) by genocide historians Vahakn Dadrian and Taner Akcam. The book is available in Armenian, English,Turkish and in several other languages. It proves that the Allied presence in Istanbul had little to do with the trials. The judges, the prosecutors, the defendents’ lawyers were Turkish. All evidence for the genocide came from Turkish sources.
      Armenians don’t need to cite the Holocaust to make their case. The Genocide of Armenians preceded the Holocaust. It was documented–by Armenian, Arab, European and Turkish sources–even before the Holocaust took place.

  • Yusif Aleskerov

    Exactly Nejla! That is exactly the point!
    Holocaust is an act of genocide because there were Nurenberg trials and decision of the court. Period.

    So, armenian users on the thread – Jacob, David, Sarah and others, let me ask you PLAIN and SIMPLE QUESTION. WHY does not Armenia try to take the matter to the court????
    You may not know the answer with your filled with turkophobia brainwashed minds, but i do, and so does your leadership. Because your arguments are flawed, and will not stand even slightest scrutiny.

    You can’t deny the facts.
    1. Armenian population of Eastern Anatolia was armed by Russians.
    2. Armenian population of Eastern Anatolia attacked, killed, burned, ethnically cleansed turkish and kurdish population of the area fueld by Russian armed and moral support in hopes of future armenian state on these lands.
    There is nothing wrong in wanting the state by the way, but it is ultimately wrong to build it by exterminating local population. This is what armenians were doing in Eastern Anatolia around 1915.

    There are numerous and numerous accounts of armenian vandalism recorded by Russian military officers and travellers. You may choose to ignore them, but the judges in the court won’t ignore them, and that is exactly why your leadership will never take the matter to court. Because they know quite well who did what.

    • Sarah

      1. What you call local population lived there and had a country there for centuries. Turkishs came and took it brutally.
      2. Come on and give up to tell us all your nightmares about Armenia and what Armenians did. Check your dreams and psychiatrist and some good books of history will help you to realize that they never happened. No matter how bad will be frustration for you and the others who post here by different names(probably again you who entered by different names here)accept the truth you cannot deny, cannot rewrite the history, so accept it how it happened. And don’t say about historians okay? Every historian in the world ( except most Turkish historians but not all) knows what happened, how happened, why happened and who did.
      If you have other point of view, gather evidence, collect data from archives and try to publish your nightmares as reality if someone will be as mad as you to publish you in serious scientific journals. Until that all your delusions have no more cost than you know what.

  • Jay Polly

    Yusif,

    You seem to be ignorant about the fact that there actually was a verdict against these massacres and it was rendered in Turkey itself. In 1919 the Turkish courts in Istanbul condemned the Ittihadist partiy’s planned race-extermination on a massive scale, and condemned the perpetrators, especially the leadership Triumvirate, Talat, Jemal and Enver, to death for these crimes against humanity. The word Genocide did not exist then.

    The Turkish courts decision cannot be overlooked because it was done according to existing Ottoman laws and carried out by Turks themselves, unlike Nuremberg. These are all well documented, you cannot rewrite history.

    Now a lot of Turks do not like these court proceedings because it does not fall in line with the post-War Turkish Republic’s invented (literally) narrative of Turkish historiography.

    So instead of demanding Armenians to take the case to courts, you and your fellow Turks should respect the Turkish court’s already rendered verdict. These court proceedings, with massive amount of witnesses and testimonials and official documents leave no doubt that what happened to the Armenians today it’s called Genocide. You might not like it but let’s face it, it is your problem.

  • Jamie Nichols

    Until Turkey allows historians, journalists and other investigators to inspect its archives, we will not know the truth of what happened to the Armenians (and Greeks) who once inhabited eastern Anatolia and other parts of Turkey. In the meantime, those whose hearts and minds are filled with animus toward all things Turkish should ask themselves whether they and their children benefit from the corrosive and dyspeptic effects of Turk-hate. For even if the opening of Turkey’s archives conclusively show there was a deliberate policy and practice on the part of Turkish authorities in 1915-1920 to dispossess and eliminate Armenians (and Greeks) from their ancestral homeland by the use of mass murder, threats and intimidation–in short, that Turkey was guilty of genocide–what then? It is too late to put on trial any of the perpetrators of that genocide, since they have returned to the dust and mud whence they emerged. If there is a Supreme Adjudicator of our sins and other doings, they have no doubt been cast into the bowels of Hell for their crime against humanity. So what is to be accomplished, after the archives have been opened, by continuing the hatred of present day Turkey and its Turkish citizenry? Surely those of Armenian ancestry do not believe that the excessively prideful and nationalistic leaders of Turkey and their constituents will ever offer reparations for the genocidal behavior of a prior generation of Turks. However, if the archives support the conclusions of those who believe genocide was in fact committed, I can foresee the possibility of a formal apology to Armenians by a Turkish government. I would hope that rather than continuing the campaign of vitriol and recrimination against today’s Turkey and its Turkish citizenry, Armenians (and Greeks) take the higher road by issuing a preemptive statement of forgiveness. Perhaps such an act of forgiveness will embolden Turkey’s government to accept responsibility for what it most likely knows better than anyone else, since it has long had access to the documents relating to the alleged genocidal activities of its people toward the Armenians. If Turkey truly wants to live in peace and friendship with Armenians and Greeks who live inside and outside Turkey’s borders, it will need to reconcile with them. Such a reconciliation can only happen after Turkey fully and truthfully accounts for its past actions against Armenians and Greeks, and those people offer genuine forgiveness for an equally genuine act of contrition by Turkey.

    • http://xocali.net Jacob

      Below is addressed to Jamie Nichols

    • Sarah

      Jamie Nichols. The law says that for those who committed Genocide there is no such an excuse as time period passed since it happened, for paying back for all crimes deed. Even after years, fascists who were involved in massacres of Jewish had been sentenced to death despite their old age, diseases, etc. So for escaping paying for the Genocide made by your predators don’t hope that after time will pass it will leave nothing to do. The only reason that Turkey didn’t pay for that yet is political interest of big countries to make pressure on Turkey every time. From the moral and human point of view, and to have less problems with Western countries, you should have been done that long ago. The main difference of Holocaust and Armenian Genocide is that after Holocaust Germany paid for every Jewish family a very big amount of money. And Israel is refounded partly by finances paid by Germany. So what Armenians have after the genocide paid back, almost nothing: Turkish nation that lives and prospers on our land, those who killed innocent people never stood in front of the lawsuit, never suffered or isolated for the murder,continued to live among the society, who should be as guilty as them not to notice and differ murderers from others. So Turkey, country built partly by the finances of our millionaires of the beginning of the 20-th century who were killed in Genocide, Armenians, spread all over the world who could live in their homeland instead if we could be able to liberate our homeland from Turks in the beginning of the 20-th century, and a small and poor country called Armenia now, where actually few Armenians lived before Genocide. Armenian survivors from Western Armenia, ie. Anatolia (and Turkey)immigrated to those lands. Feel the difference? I don’t want and will be insane to say Holocaust was lesser tragedy, it will be nonsense to say that, but it has ended, and will never repeat, what about Genocide of Armenians, consequences of it continue and will continue unless not punished by the law. And there is a risk to be repeated as Turkishs and Azeri remain the same beasts as I can judge looking how many “armeniophobe” species of them continue to exist. By the way I never understood the hate they felt about Armenians, what are you afraid to lose. We lost a country, part of the nation, what YOU are afraid to lose? By the way the term Holocaust first was used by an american journalist from New York Times to describe massacres held by sultan Hamid at the end of 19-th century against Armenians, far before Second World War.

  • http://xocali.net Jacob

    There is a smell of disingenuousness in your genuine thoughts. You don’t need to be born yesterday to realize that the same government orchestrated and organized genocidal hatred is still alive and well in ALL levels of Turkish society, in spite of a minority brave souls who want to change things. Unless the genocide of Armenians is recognized by the Turkish government and steps are taken to reeducate the masses in Turkey, the same thread will loom over Armenians, both in Turkey and neighbouring Armenia. This is not merely call for justice and return of confiscated property, this is about the survival of the Armenian nation.

    The heirs to the perpetrators of the Ottoman Genocide of Armenians today are the “proud” recipients of the bounty of the destruction and the destitution of the Armenian citizens of the Ottoman Empire.

    You might want to “preemptively” give forgiveness to an entity that does not recognize a crime has been committed and is not asking for forgiveness. All that says is that you simply do not know your enemy.

  • miller

    The Armenians try to consider the death of Armenians in WWI, as an equivalent of Jewish Holocaust. There is not any similarity:

    Unlike the Jewish Holocaust, which was proven before the Nuremburg Tribunal with the trappings of due process, there has been no kind of court decision about what the Armenians call a ‘genocide’ nor has the Armenians ever applied to any court.
    Moreover, International Court of Justice or domestic courts are the only authorities reserved to prosecute and proclaim genocide according to the 1948 UN Convention. Therefore, the Armenian allegation of genocide lacks evidence and legal support.
    I call the readers of the forum to ask themselves these questions:
    Did the Jews urge the parliaments to pass resolutions to recognize that the events which took place in WWII were genocide?
    Did they bargain with the politicians of the country they live, to write their history and pass resolutions as they wished it to have been in exchange of Jewish votes? 977
    Did the Jews close their archives and prevent the historians from making research?
    Did the Jews threaten the historians, sue them or bomb their houses to prevent them talking all the details about their history, like the Armenians did? (www.sarigelinbelgeseli.com;http://209.232.239.37/gtd1/ViewIncident.aspx?id=56624

    http://turkishweekly.net/comments.php/id2418/top/comments.php?id=594, http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/69histors-charny.htm, http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/intimidate.htm)

    Did the Jews get frightened to discuss these events with all the historians of the world like the Armenians have been doing? (See the news entitled ‘RA foreign minister didn’t say Armenia agrees to form commission of historians’ on November 26, 2008 in Panarmenian and the news entitled ‘Dashnaks warn Sarkisian over Armenian genocide study’ on July 9, 2008 in Armenia Liberty; and also see http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/august_2004/history001.html)

    Did the Jews establish outlawed terrorist organizations like ASALA, JCAG (Justice Commandos for Armenian Genocide) and ARA (Armenian Revolutionary Army) and did they perform dozens of murders and hundreds of terrorist activities, to introduce their thesis to the public, like the Armenians did? (http://www.ataa.org/reference/topalian/VIS6_Berkoz_Affidavit.pdf; Michael M. Gunter, ‘Pursuing the Just Cause of Their People’: A Study of Contemporary Armenian Terrorism, Wesport-New York, Greenwood Press, 1986, p. 74; Gunter Lewy, ‘Pursuing the Just Cause of Their People:’ A Study of Contemporary Armenian Terrorism, pp. 99-100).

    Did the Jews perform massacres upon the German and present the photographs of them, as if they were the pictures of the Jews killed by the German? (It is of note that the Armenians have been using the photographs of the dead bodies of Turkish/Muslim whom they themselves massacred, as if they were the pictures of the Armenians who were massacred by the Turks (for fake photoes see http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/forgeries-fotos.html).

    They even have presented the dead bodies of the Azeri Turks whom were massacred by the Armenians themselves in Hocali, as bodies of the Armenians killed in 1915.
    Also, it is of note that the Armenians presented many other forgeries and lies http://www.ataa.org/reference/forgeries-delen.html, http://www.ataa.org/reference/andonian-ataov.html) Did the Jews attempt to make forgeries in documents?

    And, did Nazi Germany try the officials (SS soldiers) for not taking the necessary measures during their relocation and giving rise to their death like the Ottoman government did in 1916?
    (See the reporting of Talat Pasha published in Berliner Tageblatt Newspaper on 4 May 1916 ; the order sent to provinces from the Ottoman government dated 1June 1915 from Prime Ministry Ottoman Archieve SHFR, nr 54/9 which was followed by that
    officials who were found faulty during the deportations were court marshalled in early 1916 (out of 1673 who stood in court, 67 were given death sentences, 524 jail term, 68 row boat and monetary punishments by Talat Pasha government, before we lost the war)

    No. They attempted to make none of them except applying to the International Courts.

    The Armenians claim that International scholars of genocide approve their thesis.

    Then, why did they not feel their evidences powerful enough and use fake photographs, fake documents and lies?

    Why are they afraid of simply applying to the International Court of Justice instead of spending huge amounts of money to make the propaganda of their thesis?

    Why are they afraid of discussing their thesis in historical joint commissions?

    Why did they not open their archives up till now, while the Turkish archives are open?

    So is it not obvious that keeping Holocaust which is a proven fact same with Armenian allegations which depend on forgeries, lies and falcifications is an unjust attitute towards reality and another unjust praise given to lies?

    • Sarah

      Miller, here is the link that answers to all of the false links that you bring here, that doesn’t exist. And what about the existing sites one of them was some letter from I don’t know whom, saying I don’t know what. The other was a list of names, and some clamps of words that don’t and can’t say anything in defense of your denial of Armenian genocide. On the other hand, here is a link that answers to your questions why no one sued a lawsuit against Young Turks. Your government did it and named what they did as a race extermination. You can find a lot of sites which base on historical facts and not the accusing words as you do. Do research in any european, american archive, just photo and video archive. Search for court decision against Young Turks you will find the evidence. The fact is that the first who accepted Armenian Genocide as a historical fact and crime was Turkish government. And now you try to deny Armenian Genocide as a fact. Indeed, it’s right when our predators said ” stupid, wily and flattering as a Turk”.
      http://anc.org.au/genocide_denied_genocide_repeated1.htm

    • Sarah
    • Jerry Vee

      The Genocide of Armenians caused more severe damage to the Armenian nation than the Holocaust did to the Jews. While the number of Jews killed by the Germany was larger than the number of Armenians killed by Turkey, the Armenians lost most of their homeland of Cilicia and Western Armenia due to the genocide. The Holocaust also gave a huge international impetus to create Israel. the Holocaust helped create Israel; the Genocide help in the disappearance of the Armenian homeland. Armenians are still waiting for Turkish, American, British, German recognition of the genocide of 1915 let alone restitution from Turkey.

  • miller

    Fact: There has never convened a “competent tribunal”, as foreseen by the article 6 of the 1948 U.N. Convention on Genocide where the accused were given a chance of fair representation, cross-examining the evidence, and producing own evidence in defense. Therefore, a genocide verdict does not exist. So how can one deny something that does not legally exist?

    Fact: Genocide charges are political and cannot be substantiated with historical evidence. What Armenians claim as evidence and eyewitness accounts do not amount to more than hearsay and forgeries in the eyes of the law. If it is suffering they wish to discuss, then they have to talk about the suffering of all the people of the area in 1915, including the suffering Armenians had inflicted on Muslims, mostly Turks, and not just what Armenians had experienced.

    Turks do not deny the Armenian suffering; Turks point to the facts that Armenians took up arms against their own government, conducted violent raids, rebellions, terrorism, and treason, coupled with territorial demands, caused many Turkish dead and casualties.

    • Sarah

      Miller, there is no such a law that calls the brutal and violent death of 1,5 million people part of which were women and children and elderly people as just a “suffering”. This type of death in the country which wasn’t into war, in quiet circumstances, is called Genocide. So if you will able to change the world’s moral and criminal law your way so that Genocide of particularly Armenians would be called suffering, go on and try to do that. Otherwise, how could that happen that someone who lost his 19 members of family during Dersim massacre occurred in 1937-1938 in Turkey, hired a lawsuit against Turkey government, and it’s accepted as a genocide but what about Armenians, who lost a historical country and near 1,5 million people, it’s only a hearsay. If there will be the will of big empires of modern world, only no more than one month will be enough to collect evidence about Armenian Genocide, so don’t worry about the lack of evidence, there is only a lack of willingness to do so. There is a huge documentation in archives of Germany, France, Great Britain, US, I’m not sure about Turkey as if even there would be such, they would be and perhaps they are destroyed by you government. Even not being a historian, I could bring many of them. What wrote about it many writers, politicians, journalists and others, how many photos and videos are of those days, and so on. How Soghomon Tehleryan was acquitted not guilty by German law for shooting Taleat pasha, who was one of the main organizers that massacre. You can find lot of such evidence by searching in archive if you wish to do so.

    • Jerry Vee

      Much is made by Turkey and genocide denialists of Armenians killing Turks. The Ottoman Empire had a huge and trained army. For centuries it had military colleges. Turkish officers were often trained in Europe. Turkey’s ally, Germany, had provided the Turks with moden weaponry, had trained Turks and often led Turkish soldiers to battle. Armenians had a handful of fedayeen here and there, armed with rudimentary weaponry (often home-made) in a hopeless attempt to dend a dozen or so Armenian communities. The military strengths and aims of the two parties was so one-sided that to call it a military conflict would be an inane hyperboly. What kind of insane and tiny minority would challenge an empire on the battlefield?
      There were Armenians in the Russian armies because those Armenians were citizens of the Russian Empire. There were also Armenians in the Ottoman army but they were disarmed and slain by the army to make sure they wouldn’t aid civilian Armenians being butchered across the country. Please no talk of Turks killed by Armenians.

  • http://xocali.net Jacob

    “miller”, as a Turk you, of all people. should know that in 1919 a very competent Turkish court i nIstanbul saw that the accused were given a chance of fair representation, cross-examining the evidence, and produced own evidence in defense. And in light of multitude of official documentation a genocide verdict was given, it was called Armenian race-extermination and the main perpetrators were given death sentence, and since those cowards had escaped to save their lives, the sentence was given in absentia. The Genocide verdict applies fully in the case of the Armenian case. Only to you, a Turk, would shamefully falsify the reality of this case. A coward’s way indeed.