TRIPOLI — On July 30, the day before this 97.5 percent Muslim country began the holy month of Ramadan, NATO spokesperson Roland Lavoie lamely attempted to explain to the press at the Rixos Hotel and internationally why NATO was forced to bomb three Tripoli TV towers at the Libyan Broadcasting Authority, killing three journalists/technicians and wounding 15 others. Like most people currently in central Tripoli, this observer was awakened at 1:50 a.m. by the first of a series of nine blasts, three of which I watched from my balcony as they happened, and which seemed to be about 800 yards away as I saw one TV tower being blown apart. On the four-lane divided highway adjacent to my hotel and below my balcony, which runs along the sea front, I could see two cars frantically swerving left and right as they sped along, presumably trying to avoid a NATO rocket, fearing they themselves might be targeted.
According to NATO spokesperson Lavoie, allowing Libya’s population to watch government TV, and by implication, to hear terrorist public service announcements concerning subjects such as gasoline availability, food distribution for Ramadan, updates on areas to be avoided due to recent NATO bombing, prayers and lectures by Sheiks on moral and religious subjects during Ramadan, or to see the Prayer Times chart posted on government TV, during this month of fasting, plus children’s programs and normal programming, had to stop immediately.
The reason to bomb Libyan government TV, according to NATO, is that Libyan leader Gaddafi has been giving interviews and speeches following repeated NATO bombings that recently have included hospitals, Ramadan food storage warehouses, the nation’s main water distribution infrastructure, private homes, and more than 1,600 other civilian sites. NATO believes that preventing Gaddafi’s use of Libya’s public airwaves by bombing transmission towers is within UN resolutions 1970 and 1973, the scope of which are being expanded beyond all recognition from their original intent. NATO spokesperson Lavoie claims that Libya’s leadership is using TV broadcast facilities to thwart NATO’s “humanitarian mission” and, yet again are, “putting civilian lives at risk.”
Government officials admit using the media for communication with the population, including to urge tribal unity, to dialogue with those based in Benghazi referred to here as “NATO rebels”, to argue for an immediate ceasefire and, yes, even to call for all Libyans to resist what many here, including Colonel Gaddafi, call “the NATO crusader aggressors.”
In western Libya, and even among many in the east, according to recent rebel defectors who daily arrive on the western side, NATO has lost the respect of this country, Africa, the Middle East, and increasingly the international community. The reasons are well known here and include the serial false premises and descriptions of what happened in February in Benghazi and Misrata areas.
In addition, NATO daily bombing strikes have increased approximately 20 percent since July 25, and will continue to increase according to French Defense Minister Gerard Longuet, who, along with UK Defense Minister Liam Fox, while publicly saying NATO must continue the bombing, is privately expressing his frustration with the killing of rebel military commander Abdul Fatah Younnis. This assassination, according to Libyan officials, was very likely carried out by Younnis’ rebel leaders or Al Qaeda. Both are said to feel that the rebel leadership in Benghazi is collapsing. So do many NATO leaders and the Obama Administration.
A former senior member of Britain’s Liberal Democratic Party, Sir Menzies Campbell, has just urged the UK government to rethink its involvement in the war on Libya. Campbell said Britain must undertake a “wholesale re-examination and review” of its involvement in the NATO conflict in Libya after the murder of the opposition figure and Britain “must think about the end-game of the conflict in Libya.”
One Libyan government supporter, who just arrived here in Tripoli, claims he spent the past two months on the ground in Benghazi “undercover” as a liaison between the rebels and NATO. He told his rapt audience at a Tripoli hotel this week many details of what he claims is NATO’s frustration with the deterioration, corruption, and incompetence of their “team” in the east and the CIA view that “Al Qaeda will eat Mahmoud Jibril and the entire rebel leadership for Iftar during one of the Ramadan feasts during August. They are just waiting for the right opportunity to make a dramatic move and take control.”
Only the zealots of “humanitarian intervention” could seriously have contemplated the kind of protracted, bloody land war in Libya that would have been necessary to win. So, the bet on an alliance with NATO now appears to have been doomed from the start, even on its own terms.
The force that is rapidly entering into this conflict is the leadership of Libya’s more than 2000 tribes. In a series of meetings in Libya, Tunisia and elsewhere, the Tribal Council is speaking out forcefully and forging a political block that is demanding an end to Libyans killing Libyans.
Generally considered Libya’s largest tribe are the Obeidis, to which the Younnis family belongs. Some of the tribal leaders and members have vowed revenge against rebel leaders, and as they carried the coffins of Abdul Fatah and his two companions, they chanted, under the gaze of security forces, “the blood of martyrs will not go in vain.”
Libya’s Tribal Council has issued a manifesto which makes clear that it intends to end this conflict, help expel “the NATO crusaders”, and achieve reforms while supporting the Gaddafi, Tripoli based government. Before Ramadan is over, it intends to end Libya’s crisis even if it needs to rally its hundreds of thousands of active members to march on Benghazi.
NATO, according to various academics at Al Nasser and Al Fatah University, and Libya’s Tribal leadership, appear surprisingly ignorant and even contemptuous of this country’s tribes and their historic roles during times of crises and foreign aggression and occupation. One tribal leader well known to Italy was Omar Muktar.
As NATO and its backers contemplate their endgame, they may want to consider some excerpts from the Libyan Tribal Council’s manifesto issued on July 26. Speaking for Libya’s 2000 tribes, the Council issued a Proclamation signed by scores of tribal leaders from eastern Libya:
By this letter to the extraordinary African Summit, convening in Addis Ababa, the notables of the Eastern tribes of the Great Jamahiriya confirm their complete rejection of what is called the Transitional Council in Benghazi which hasn’t been nominated nor elected by Tribal representatives but rather imposed by NATO.
What is called the Transitional Council in Benghazi was imposed by NATO on us and we completely reject it. Is it democracy to impose people with armed power on the people of Benghazi, many of whose leaders are not even Libyan or from Libyan tribes but come from Tunisia and other countries?
… The Trial Council assures its continuing cooperation with the African Union in its suggestions aimed at helping to prevent the aggression on the Libyan people.…
The Tribal Council condemns the crusader aggression on the Great Jamahiriya executed by the NATO and the Arabic regressive forces which is a grave threat to Libyan civilians as it continues to kill them as NATO bombs civilian targets.…
We do not and will not accept any authority other than the authority that we chose with our free will which is the People’s Congress and Peoples Committees, and the popular social leadership, and will oppose with all available means, the NATO rebels and their slaughter, violence and maiming of cadavers. We intend to oppose with all the means available to us the NATO crusader aggressors and their appointed lackeys.
According to one representative of the Libyan Supreme Tribal Council, “The tribes of Libya have until today not fully joined in repelling the NATO aggressors. As we do, we serve notice to NATO that we shall not desist until they have left our country and we will ensure that they never return.”
Thank you so much mr Franklin Lamb for your support to our beloved Libya and our Leader.
Viva Libya, Viva Gaddafi
NATO’s agression on Libya is about oil and about impérialiste financial dominance (i.e. block thé African Central Bank project). I am no friend of Qaddafi’s but I do want him to win. Imperialist and neo-colonialist agression is so out of hand, it is not even recognized for what it is any more. Lavoie looks at us right in thé face and tells us TV is killing civilians.
BHL, Sarkozy, Obama, Cameron and others are war criminels. This is war outlawed by thé Nuremburg trials, UN rules and thé Geneva conventions. I only wish we could get people in our Western coutnries to make them stop bombing thé Libyan people and stop backing thé Benghazi terroriste and western lackies.
I disagree about the oil motivation. The best thing to keep oil flowing would keep Gaddafi in power. More likely, Gaddafi has been a thorn in NATO’s side because of his prior support of terrorism. As Clinton found out in Somalia, intervention in another countries problem is never as simple as it seems. At least we did not send in ground troups this time.
p.s. I actually wrote a pièce on my blog Sunday condemning thé outragions bombing of Libyan TV. Youc anfind it hère: http://kazodaily.wordpress.com/2011/07/31/natos-attack-on-libyan-tv-an-outrage/
Thank you
your post is as intelligent as it is mature. With supporters like you, thé rebels will get far indeed.
Perhaps the NATO attacks on Libya are the most visible symptoms of what has been going on modern Western society for many years – the total lack of respect for the most basic human rights to the truth,life and ownership of property. What Nato is doing in Libya is a classic example – bombing the TV station, deliberate destruction of property, killing as many people as they think they can get away with. And they doinh it openly and shamelessly.
I agree with you!
Mr.Franklin Lamb,
Thank you for this nice article. I am A Libyan and I know very well how important the Tribal factor is. I knew from the first that those repel will gone to lose it, cause they didn’t respect this factor from the very beginning, and they tried to import concepts that are kind of unfamiliar to the Libyan people. As for NATO, Libyan people have proved for World that it’s a pathetic organization, and nobody on the earth should fear it any more.
As for the comments above from “AKram”, I am sorry cause I think he is originally from Libya, and you may now know, why the majority of Libyan people are in a fight with such scum. Image such mentality want to represent our voice and image to the rest of the world.
thanks again and please keep writing the truth.
I think you meant comments from ‘villefort’. Akram seems to supportt thé same position you do
I am originally from Egypt, and i love gaddafi so much and there are millions love gaddafi too much in Egypt like me, and we are from here announce that we will fight with our Libyan brothers against any Foreign Troops that come to occupy our second home land LIBYA.
And for whom he called “Moftah” i said do’nt be so girlish in your speech to make the west loves you , or respect you hahaha ur name “Moftah” and you are trying to do like …… “yayiiiii” hahahaha shame at you,
you must be as you are do not pretend some one else Moftah …..
Is that the only thing u can come up with? The rebel cause was a lost cause right from the start? Wake up and see that Libya is a sovereign country with its own government! Wakewakey…..
“AKram” are you by any chance Gaddafi’s speech writer.
“11bravo” if your compliment was directed at me thank you very much.
“Stopbombinglibya” you are bearing out my suspicion that you are a wolf in sheep’s clothing, especially after the Wakewakey comment.
I very much doubt that you really care about civilian deaths, but more concerned about NATO’s targeted bombing slowly eroding Gaddafi’s military power.
The failure Gaddafi needs to step up and do the right thing for Libya and step down.
I have heard about the tribes rising up against NATO and the Rebels many times over the last 5 months, never happens all hot air. The same as the promised cease fires.
Remember who started this not NATO but the nice Mr Gaddafi. He is such a brilliant leader he has lost half his people along with the country, most of us would call this a major failure and who wants a failure running any country.
The NTC was formed before NATO got involved.
The Imperialist/Colonialist is old hat and I would think no one with half a brain is going to fall for this type of propaganda.
Time for Gaddafi to step down for the sake of Libya and Libyans.
The French and Americans had military personnel in Benghazi a month before thé bombing started training and organizing thé so-called rebels. (well documented if you look for thé info) The US sent Khalifa Hifter who had been living for 20 years five miles from Langley (CIA asset recrutied 20 years ago). He was supposed to lead thé rebel Army but was put aside by General Younis, now dead.
There is nothing spontanious about this revolt. it was organized by France and Britain with US help and it will fail.
Gaddafi has much more support in Libya than NATO. But once again thé US is sleeping with al Qaeda, as they did in Afghanistan. It is you who must wake up to thé reality.
i am libyan i live in tripoli i went out of tripoli last week …i never heard of someone died because of nato …..i have seen girls get rapped by the gaddafi men ….so please tell what are going to say to does girls ….you are gaddafi bitch
Funny how it is coincidental to all the other rebellions in the region against oppressive dictators. Gaddafi will probably be facing the same humiliation as Mubarak is now. Franklin Lamb is a real patsy for the Gaddafi Regime. Silly old fool.
Akram, ru7 ntek ya ebn al sharmuta, Libya beda tet7arar men akhol sharmuta Gaddafi metel ma t7ararit Tunis w Masr w inshalla el Yemen w Souriya etc
Kiss im imak ya akhol sharmuta, ayre bsharafak
It is NATO and the US that are the “terrorists” — Obama’s blood lust combined with multinational corporate interests underlie the widespread destruction of Libya. This is a criminal endeavor and Obama and NATO should be placed on trial.
Yes, I agree, NATO should be placed on trial!
“…Today senior members of the tribes from Zlitan came to Tripoli to give a press conference to the Libyan media about their anger at NATO’s claims that their children, women and men were legitimate targets because they were connected to the military…”
NATO’s killing of civilians in Zlitan a bigger “mistake” then it anticipated
lizziephelan | August 12, 2011 at 5:20 pm | Categories: Africa, Anti-imperialism, Libya, nato, Unity amongst oppressed communities | URL: http://wp.me/p1kfb7-gh
According to Wikileaks…a few years prior to this Arab Spring uprising, the U.S. had been working on an overthrow of Gadhafi. I too think that the U.S. made critical mistakes by ignoring Muslim culture and Libyan loyalities. Hillary and the rest of the U.S. government shamelessly run around acting and talking like the rebels are the only voters in Libya. Furthermore, she and the others stupidily jeopardize our safety and well-being by refusing to acknowledge the support that Gadhafi actually has. Well, I for one, don’t care how stupid Hillary was about her own husband’s cheating, but I, as a citizen, take extreme exception to how she imperils me and everyone else in this country will her ill founded positions on the Middle East as a whole!
Libyan people will win this war against Nato and its rebels.
This is the democracy that Natto would bring to Libyan people. Have a look on this vedio to see Benghazi on 01/08/2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Ouf3oxEPQ&feature=share
Libya lost almost one third of it’s entire population ejecting the Italians from their lands. Anyone who thinks that they will just roll over so that a few large oil companies based in NATO member countries can plunder them again is delusional. The rebels are comprised of ner-do-weller’s, misfits, criminals, and terrorists, as evidenced by one of their leaders, Abdel Hakim al Hasidi. He went to Afghanistan in 2001 where he killed an unknown number of coalition troops. The supposed revolution is based on lies, fought by terrorists, and supported by imperialists. That is why it will fail. The average Libyan is not stupid. This was orchestrated by NWO Zionists, for the benefit of oil companies, arms manufacturers, and Israel.
I wonder why some westerners support this immoral war in Libya.If NATO can stoop down so low to bomb a TV station’s transmitters just to prevent Gadafi from reaching his poeple then something must be wrong with the whole operation. The war has been lost long before it was started.Gadafi can be evil to the west but to his people he is their leader so what is NATO’s business?. AMERICA,BRITAIN,FRANCE have all killed covertly.The world knows it.When Bush went to Iraq nobody talked about International Criminal Court.See the hundreds of thousands if not millions killed in Iraq and still being killed yet Bush is quietly enjoying his retirement.TO ME THE UN AND ICC SHOULD BE DISMANTLED. They are serving no good.Syria is killing and killed more than Gadafi did yet the west is quiet.NO NATO STRIKE IN SYRIA. What is so special about the Libyan blood? OK may be the Libyan blood has OIL which the Syrian blood hasn’t.AND THE WORST CASE IS MOST OF THE BENGHAZI LEADERS ARE NOT EVEN LIBYANS. I DO NOT SEE ANY DIFFERENCE AMONG NATO, TALIBAN AND AL’QAEDA. THEY ARE JUST THE SAME THINGS WORLD BRUTES FROM DIFFERENT LOCATIONS. NATO IS FRUSTRATED AND I’M SO HAPPY BECAUSE THE FRENCH LEADER(IS HE A LEADER AT ALL)THINKS HE IS SO INTELLIGENT, BYPASSING THE UN MANDATE TO ARM THE REBELS. SO AFTERALL FRANCE DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE UNITED NATIONS IF THE CAN ACT UNILATERALLY.THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING AND GOD WILL JUDGE EACH AND EVERY ONE OF HIS ACTIONS. AND THEY CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS. NO THESE ARE NATO CRUSADERS NOT CHRISTIANS.
Listening to Gaddafi’s speeches tells me he is an Evil failure.
“There is nothing spontanious about this revolt. it was organized by France and Britain with US help and it will fail.”
Silly me, I did not know ordinary Libyan citizens are stupid enough to rise up and risk there lives because some French, British or American said so.
Gaddafi is a Evil failure pure an simple, he has built up a lot of hate with a vast amount of Libyans, don’t blame outsiders for his failings.
If he truly loves his country he will step down, to let Libya thrive under an elected Libyan government, unfortunately he wont, he only cares for himself.
Bert – you’re an idiot.
Gaddafi only cares for himself?
Which Western media bullshit have you been reading?
Under Gaddafi;
– All Libyans receive a portion of the sale of Libyan oil
– Max income tax in Libya is 12%.
– Banks do not charge interest in Libya (Islamic Bank Model, not the Rothschild Slave System).
– All Libyans have a house. Ghaddafi vowed that his parents would not get a house until everyone in Libya had a house.
– There are no mortgages on houses in Libya.
– Should someone wish to farm, they receive free land and seeds and animals.
– There are no Electricity Bills in Libya.
– All Education is Free in Libya … including positive moves to encourage more women into education.
– Everyone gets Free Medical – Even the Protestors …
– Each newlywed couple receives 60,000 dinar gift from the government.
– Automobile purchases are financed at zero interest.
– Ghaddafi completed a MASSIVE water project to irrigate land to free Libya from dependance on Imported Food
You might not like his style of politics, but selfish is something he is not! He is overwhelmingly the LEGITIMATE leader of Libya. The NATO [North Atlantic TERRORIST Organisation] is waging a war it has morally lost, and will hopefully lose. The UN is a global Mafia. These acts of aggression driven by the Washington, via the CIA, UN, NATO and the European whores of the US like the UK and France has no legitimate basis nor justification. They are the IMF’s henchmen; yet more blood and tears being spilt on behalf of the world’s bankers. People of the world – UNITE behind the oppressed brothers and sisters of Libya and pray Gaddafi and his followers see justice prevail, and the filthy rebel whores and their backers fail in their illegitimate campaign of terrorism and fraud.
We are Anonymous.
We are Legion.
We do not forgive.
We do not forget.
Expect us.
Sorry “Pissed Off” the speeches he and his son have been making in the last 5 months are full of loving kindness and warmth for the people in the East of the country.
The Arab media must have translated it incorrectly into Evil spite.
Gaddafi is an Evil failure, you don’t have a vast majority of your population rising up against you in a bloody civil war if you are a good kind leader.
Remember its Libyan people on the ground that are fighting.
As I have said before “If he truly loves his country he will step down, to let Libya thrive under an elected Libyan government, unfortunately he wont, he only cares for himself.”
I take it from your comments you would rather have an failed evil dictator rather than a truly elected government of the people running your life.
By the way your insult was childish.
Please, do it yourself a favour and watch the following video before parroting the Western propaganda of him being failed;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXLQAUUpJwU
The best style of leadership is a benevolent dictator; sure beats the hell out of so called “Western style democracy”.
Look … the North Atlantic Terrorist Organisation is nothing more than the mercenaries of the Global Banking Cartel. Libya won’t play ball with the Rothschild system of IMF banking, so they get labelled ‘an enemy’. Other non-IMF members? Iran, North Korea, Sudan, Cuba … a.k.a the “Axis of Evil”. Wow – coincidence? Really?
Bombing TV stations? Claiming it is to protect the civilians? Give me a break! This ‘rebel’ force has no popularity, no mandate and no legitimacy. They are whores, selling out to the highest Western bidder, to do their dirty work.
They might be Libyan, but they do NOT have the support of the majority of Libyans nor are they in any way, shape or form a group who could have any legitimate claim to govern. Mercenary whores, with the CIA, the U.S and NATO as their ‘Johns’.
Thank you “Pissed Off” I had a look at that YouTube piece you suggested, very interesting.
You do realize that this is a PR piece designed to put Gaddafi in the best possible light, he may have started out with the best of intentions but has grown into a evil failure.
The oil belongs to all Libyans not just Gaddafi, giving them a small handout is just a smoke screen gesture not true ownership
Why can’t you via an elected government not decide if you want to keep your own type of banking system, spend the money to pay newly weds, carry on with housing all Libyans.
Why did Gaddafi think it was a good idea to give the blacks in America the richest country on the planet a billion dollars of your money, why not on projects in Libya.
Step back, ask yourself this why out of twelve members of the UN including Russia and China not one opposed the “No fly zone and protection of civilians” If Gaddafi was such a nice Guy why would there be a need for it in the first place.
If Gaddafi is so popular why has he been scared of free and fair elections in 40 odd years, or does he just believe its his God given right to rule over you.
Why not try going to Green Square and holding up a banner saying “Down with Gaddafi” and see how long you would last.
The west is not that bad, look at WWII the losing sides not only have there total sovereignty over there nations, but they are now some of the richest countries on the planet.
Sorry but the YouTube clip has not changed my mind.
Gaddafi is a failed evil dictator.
You label the video as Gaddafi PR, but I hope you realise that you’re parroting NATO PR, don’t you?
Criticising Gaddafi for treating the oil as ‘his’ and merely giving a token gesture handout to the people doesn’t really stack up. What funds all of the social reforms? The Housing? The health? The education? What nation in the West; disperses oil funds to the people, provides housing for free, provides health for free, provides education for free, invests in a massive water project for the benefit of all, provides free utilities, provides a system of ‘no usary’ in the banking sector, provides ‘free’ capital for business ventures, and sustain a low personal income tax rate?
How would any of that be possible without retaining the oil profits for the people in contradistinction to the corporations, who usually disperse the profits to a very elite few and pay very low and manipulated taxes back in to the public coffers?
Your ‘Western style democracy’ will NOT retain the oil wealth for the country; it never has, never does, never will.
You continually refer to Gaddafi as a “failed, evil dictator”; how about providing some facts to support that?
How is he evil?
How has he failed?
This article by Franklin Lamb is a breath of fresh air.
The Western media early on was working in coordination with NATO to try to create a quick coup against the Libyan government.
Few in the West understood the real strength of the Libyan government was in the people themselves. It is called participatory democracy. This model might be a good idea for the West to try, as the real power is based upon people in committee throughout the country.
The 2,000 Tribal Leaders are of course predating modern democracy itself. These Tribes cannot be defeated because they are in themselves governments as well. A decentralized, yet coordinated 2,000 tribes is now easy to defeat.
This Libyan war is NATO’s Waterloo. The people of Africa and the world are sick and tired of Western imperial attacks against their nations. Regardless of the manner of control, (IMF and World Bank loans to destroy national economies through structural adjustment policies), or bombs from 3,000 feet, the world has had enough of Western colonialism.
Fold your tent Uncle Sam and give up on your vain and impossible goal to establish USAFRICOM on Libyan soil. You were kicked out of Libya over 40 years ago and will not be allowed to return.
A US Army Veteran
I made a mistake in my commet.
I tried to say: A decentralized, yet coordinated 2,000 tribes is not easy and I believe impossible to defeat.
A US Army Veteran
Hi Carl Rising-Moore
You do realize this is Libyans fighting Libyans.
Who wants to defeat the 2000 tribes?
The main NATO countries just want Gaddafi to step down and let the Libyans decide for themselves who they want to lead the country.
Why do they want Gaddafi to step down, basically because and if you listen to his speeches he wants to murder thousands of Libyan citizens.
NATO is destroying military assets, as a US Army Veteran you would understand why they are doing this.
Hi Bert. Just read this blog http://nstarikov.ru/en/. It’s Russian version is quite popular.
As an ex British army veteran I see NOTHING legal, legitimate or morally right about what NATO is doing – and I’m afraid to say US forces are the biggest war mongers the world has ever seen.
Thanks Daniyar I have bookmarked the page.
@zpinch you may or may not be a British army veteran but obviously no lawyer.
How many lawyers are on the frontline?
God help us if your reference point for morality and a sense of what is right, is what a lawyer would do!
The colonialistic plunder of Libya must be stopped at all costs by the tribes of Libya. The plunderers have taken Libyan money and given it to the UK, Swiss banks,etc to help in the destruction of Libya. All Libyans must come forth and repel all boarders from Nato.
I pray that all REASONABLE means are finally implemented to bring both sides to a peace table. Given the Arab uprising engulfed the region, I believe, many Libyans believed the old American lie that we would rise up for them. After the Libyan rebels yelled “down with Gadhafi”, they unfortunately were left holding the bag. With respect to Gadhafi, he showed himself as being capable of combating all opposing factions. I think, it is time for everyone to accept the present day situation as it is and go to a peace table. Given the rebels are far from the only voters and they really aren’t going to be saved by the Americans, it’s time for everyone to get wise about life and rebuild the bridge that they burnt.
“ex colony” do you seriously believe what you have written, I would be interested to know the source or do you just make it up.
About 30 countries have recognized the TNC as the legitimate government of Libya. A number of these countries are giving back to the TNC the money that Gaddafi had stashed abroad. I will point that out again, giving back.
Like all governments the TNC needs money to operate.
As the TNC requested that NATO and its Allies to not send an invasion force into Libya, I think you will find it difficult to repel them at 30,000 ft
Elina Feliu I agree with you that there needs to be a peaceful settlement, the easiest way to achieve this is for Gaddafi to stand down. When he ordered fellow Libyans to be killed then you know he has failed Libya and its people.
Libya belongs to Libyans, not the failed Gaddafi nor any one else.
“About 30 countries”?
Who cares?!?!
Irrelevant and meaningless.
The ONLY legitimate source of a governing mandate is from the Libyan people; not 30 countries who have a vested interest in removing Gaddafi.
The TNC are terrorists; a label given to them from Libyans. Can you fully comprehend that? Libyans are calling TNC terrorists. Gaddafi is supported by the OVERWHELMING majority of Libyans. The Tribes – over 2000 of them – probably a far better example of ‘democracy’ than any Western demockracy – support Gaddafi. It is estimated that Gaddafi has 90% support of Libyans for Libya.
NATO has no mandate from the Libyan people.
The acts of terrorism by NATO and those rebels the Libyans themselves call terrorists, have no democratic substance.
Here is a short video highlighting a very real possibility for this terrorist campaign being undertaken by NATO, the CIA, and the U.S funded and supported terrorists;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35_Ai6EsMU&NR=1
Just as Saddam had threatened to undermine the U.S Dollar by moving to oil sales in Euros, and Iran has announced the creation of an Oil Bourse to break the monopoly of the U.S Dollar as the reserve currency for oil trade, it also seems that now we have Libya under seige because of its plans to introduce the Gold Dinar.
Do the maths;
Iraq … oil … announces move to Euro
Iran … oil … announces creation of bourse
Libya … oil … announces Gold Dinar
Not difficult to see a very clear pattern and it has NOTHING to do with ‘democracy’ and EVERYTHING to do with protecting a failing reserve currency.
The Libyan people do not want NATO.
The Tribes do not want NATO.
The democracy of Libya – a far superior version to Western demockracy – overwhelmingly supports Gaddafi, estimated to be in the region of 90% support.
And to justify this co-ordinated terrorist campaign being carried out in the name of the U.N by NATO, the CIA and the U.S, you claim 30 countries recognising the terrorists as legitimacy and lawyers as the measure of morality?
Really?
The money supposedly “given back” to the Libyan people is really being given a to a highly divided “government” with no legitimacy. The money could have been used to fortify institutions such as the African Monetary Fund and might have contributed to helping African nations to obtain more room for economic development.
The claims that Ghaddafi ordered the killing of his own people has been disputed. Some of the claims made by the NATO nations have been questioned, including by human rights organizations. Further, all governments use force against armed opponents, even when those opponents are their own citizens.
Don’t be so quick about assuming that NATO claims are facts.
Roger
There is no dispute about Gaddafi giving orders about killing his own people, listen to his speeches.
Why do you think Libyan air force pilots defected with there planes.
Yes I know poor Mr Gaddafi has got a bad rap from those horrible people in the ICC about war crimes, it was all a conspiracy you know.
Any sane leader would have sent tanks and grad rockets to indiscriminately target civilians in city’s.
You cannot give Libyan money to the African Monetary fund, you might as well suggested Father Christmas.
Sorry Roger if you are working for Gaddafi’s PR machine you are not doing a good job.
The failure Gaddafi needs to think of Libya and not himself and step down
Thank you Pissed Off! You have clearly said it all…Also see http://libya360.wordpress.com/2011/08/04/tarpley-educates-adam-kokesh-in-libya-interview/
If we want to strive for peace then we all have to agree, peace will come from WITHIN Libya. To me, this means that the international community needs to acknowledge: many Libyans are fighting the rebels. The rebels are fighting as Arabs do: maiming and dismembering others. Human Rights organizations now view them as no different than their Arab brother, Gadhafi!
If we want peace, we can’t lie. One of the early explosive stories was about Libyan police disbursing one of Hillary Clinton’s crowd of peaceful protestors carrying stones and knives. Despite the fact that these two officers were not using any force or armaments, they were overcome by mobsters and lynched in the full view of the crowd. After that incident, it seemed as though the country became engulfed in civil war! (Yell cop killer in the U.S. and see what happens).
Since we all claim to have humanities’ best interest at heart, let’s look at the years of murderous sabotage that the international community planted within a country whose citizens’ practice very harsh social customs on their own errant neighbors. What did these insurgent countries do over the centuries to improve everyone’s harsh reactions to social infractions? Send them dissenters from their native countries to torture and murder? You don’t really believe that the U.S. didn’t know about Saddam Hussein’s human meat grinder operation until they stopped calling him “friend”? Ever hear of “six degrees of separation” where everyone is on average approximately six steps away from any other person on earth, so that a chain…can be made…to connect any two people in six steps or fewer? Well, guess what? For centuries, from all of the free world’s leaders to all of the Middle East’s Saddam Husseins—sat—some poor soul getting ready to meet his maker.
Now is the time for the modern world to stop lying and assume responsibility for their individual as well as their collective roles within Libya’s internal affairs and all of the entire Middle East. They can show true human compassion for everyone by (a) acknowledging the rebels are Gadhafi’s Arab brothers, (b) exercising only peaceful support for a massive overhaul of social codes, (c) stop giving Arabs arms to murder their brothers, (d) acknowledging that spokespeople from 30+ international countries are not—in a democracy–valid Libyan voters, and (e) stop sending internationals to Arabs for them to torture and murder.
“Pissed Off” there was me thinking you had a universal sense of humour concerning lawyers.
If I need legal advice I speak to a lawyer, if I need military advice I speak to a military person, on morality I don’t need to speak to anybody.
You need to read the question then the answer.
30 odd countries have recognized the TNC as the legitimate government, I never said that makes the TNC legitimate to all Libyans. The point was that these countries are giving back money that Gaddafi had stashed abroad to the TNC and not plundering it as “ex colony” had suggested.
I have heard these conspiracy theories before, you still need a large section of the population to be extremely disgruntled with the failures of Gaddafi and the brutalities of the regime to work.
I now live in a tribal country and unless there is a one man one vote within the tribes for the leadership then they are not democratic by a long shot and can be easily be corrupted.
Even if you believe the conspiracy stuff the simple solution to stop the CIA, Muslim extremist or the colonialist west from taking over is for the failed Gaddafi to step down and for Libyans to decide its next leader.
On Wednesday Seif al-Islam el-Qaddafi said to the NYT that he was reversing course to forge a secret alliance with radical Islamist.
Do you really believe the failure Gaddafi is thinking of the well being of Libya.
Bert: “….on morality I don’t need to speak to anybody”
For thousands of years there have been three absolute basic rights which each person is entitled to – The right to the truth, the right to life and the right to ownership of property.
But as George Bush often told us we now have a “New World order” and this new world order could not be made clearer than what we are now witnessing in Libya – with NATO/US propaganda, destruction of property and the killing of the inhabitants on a grand scale.
Elina is right. If we want peace, we can’t lie.
NATO/LIBYA…Isn’t this the stupidest thing that we’ve ever heard!!!
“…Today senior members of the tribes from Zlitan came to Tripoli to give a press conference to the Libyan media about their anger at NATO’s claims that their children, women and men were legitimate targets because they were connected to the military…”
NATO’s killing of civilians in Zlitan a bigger “mistake” then it anticipated
lizziephelan | August 12, 2011 at 5:20 pm | Categories: Africa, Anti-imperialism, Libya, nato, Unity amongst oppressed communities | URL: http://wp.me/p1kfb7-gh
x
I think Bert is wonderful, I want to marry him and have his baby’s
Sorry Guys Molly was me, I just wanted to find out if this site would allow me to agree with myself under a different name.
“AKram” are you by any chance Gaddafi’s speech writer.
“11bravo” if your compliment was directed at me thank you very much.
“Stopbombinglibya” you are bearing out my suspicion that you are a wolf in sheep’s clothing, especially after the Wakewakey comment.
I very much doubt that you really care about civilian deaths, but more concerned about NATO’s targeted bombing slowly eroding Gaddafi’s military power.
The failure Gaddafi needs to step up and do the right thing for Libya and step down.
“NATO bombed today the vegetable market in Tripoli”
What and whose humanitarian mission is this?
http://libyasos.blogspot.com/
What humanitarian mission bombs a vegetable market?
NATO is a little too confused.
http://libyasos.blogspot.com/
http://en.rian.ru/world/20110805/165570384.html
NATO plans campaign in Syria, tightens noose around Iran – Rogozin
AFP/ Bulent Kilic
MOSCOW, August 5 (RIA Novosti)
NATO is planning a military campaign against Syria to help overthrow the regime of President Bashar al-Assad with a long-reaching goal of preparing a beachhead for an attack on Iran, Russia’s envoy to NATO Dmitry Rogozin said…”And we are certainly concerned about an escalation of a large-scale war in this huge region,” Rogozin said.
Having learned the Libyan lesson, Russia “will continue to oppose a forcible resolution of the situation in Syria,” he said, adding that the consequences of a large-scale conflict in North Africa would be devastating for the whole world.
What kind of humanitarian mission is this? Yesterday a vegetable market. Today, what?
LIBYA WAR:”Fiercest NATO air strikes yet” hit Libyan capital
Tuesday,August 9, 2011Laaska News
TRIPOLI, Aug. 9 (Xinhua) — NATO carried out “the most violent” air raids yet on the Libyan capital early Tuesday since the alliance launched Libya operation in March, a Xinhua correspondent said.
Blasts could be heard almost everywhere and forced local residents to flee, the correspondent reported from the scene.
The correspondent also saw ambulance trucks and fire engines rushing to a spot less than 20 km away from city center, which had already been bombed by NATO a few days ago.
Libyan state-run television reported that NATO had bombed some military installations and civilian facilities in Tripoli.
Local sources told Xinhua that NATO blew up a Libyan vessel which had been docked at the port of Tripoli, yet it remains unclear whether it was for military or civilian use.
Xinhua.
NATO’s BOMBINGS IN LIBYA…What does NATO do before it drops a bomb? Cross their fingers? What’s the modern world’s contribution to the truth here?
===========
Renewed bloodshed as NATO, Gaddafi accounts collide
Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:47am GMT
“…NATO said there was no proof civilians had been killed, it is virtually impossible for the alliance to verify who is killed in such strikes.”
How often have NATO told us that they are precise in their bombing, yet when they kill men, women and children they say they did not know what they were bombing. If they do not know what they are bombing they are bombing indiscriminately. If they are bombing indiscriminately they are failing to protect civilians. If they are failing to protect civilians they cannot claim to be bombing Libya under resolution 1973.
Listening to Mr Cameron tell us that those who destroy other people’s property in England are sick I wonder does he realise that he is himself more sick when he is destroying property and killing people in Libya.
Once again, where does the modern world’s truth lie?
BREAKING NEWS: NATO Massacres of Civilians Aimed at “Cleansing” the Libyan People’s Resistance
Photographic Evidence of NATO War Crimes
by Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25966
NATO has yet to justify how Libya’s water supply is deemed a command and control center!
Elina Feliu and Edward we all know that you can paint any story depending on the media sources you choose to use.
You both seem extremely biased against NATO, why have you not given any criticism against the murderous Gaddafi’s.
When a so called leader is no longer an asset or can contribute to the well being of the country, most decent leaders would step down.
What can Gaddafi contribute to Libya now?
If you both seriously want to stop more deaths and help get Libya back to a peaceful functioning prosperous country then focus on persuading the failed Gaddafi to step down.
Bert…Given I personally can’t recall a time in history when a leader has stepped down for the good of his country, pls share with us when you saw one do it? Bill Clinton is one person who couldn’t safely lead women through a White House hallway (ex. Kathleen W.), so, I’m truly at a loss in recalling the people you are referring to. What I clearly see is a massive group of Libyans that want Gadhafi and another group that doesn’t. Within the group that carried stones and knives to those peaceful little demonstrations were those who violently turned on two police officers dispersing the crowd without the use of weapons by lynching (hanging) them right in front of the assembled. Since those peaceful protesters seem to have an anger management issue, I’d suggest, everyone exercise the internationally recognized function called: peace table negotiations. Libyans can then make a collective decision there.
Furthermore, Bert, among the other fate determining points that I think the world likes to ignore is the Muslim culture supports stonings, amputations, assaults on each other, etc. Years ago, I personally vacationed for a full week in Tunisia (a then internationally recognized moderate Arab country that touted its friendship with the U.S. as though it was a tourist’s attraction) and enjoyed an indepth interesting conversation with a Tunisian detective on how people in the ‘hood think and act. You’re the gravely misled one if you think Gadhafi is some sore thumb of Libya and government in the region.
Elina Feliu from the top of my head
UK Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain resigned
UK King Edward VIII abdicated/resigned
UK Prime Minister Tony Blair resigned
US President Richard Nixon resigned before he was impeached
Egypt President Mubarak resigned, some may claim he was pushed.
With a bit of research I would think you could come up with a host of other leaders that have also resigned.
The two police officer claim is weak, it does not explain the major uprisings all around the different parts of the country.
Some of the practices in parts of the world are aberrant, but was it not the Judaic God that recommended stoning. Luckily some civilizations have moved on and see it as barbaric.
This is a different argument and is for the Libyan people to decide if they want these forms of so called justice within there country.
The UK Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain tried making peace with Hitler once, it failed, he resigned.
If the failure Gaddafi had any sense of doing the right thing for Libya, he would step down.
He plays chess, he therefor thinks about moves ahead and can calculate the outcome.
Why send young men out to get killed, for what, so he can stay in power for a little bit longer to satisfy his pride. That really is disgusting.
Bert, I’m really pressed for time so I can’t comment on the list of leaders that you submitted. Once I read Nixon’s name, though, I realized that I really have to put my “to do” list before taking time out to re-read posts about the leaders that you submitted as examples of men stepping down for the good of the people! (I truly blushed.)
Bert: “Elina Feliu and Edward we all know that you can paint any story depending on the media sources you choose to use.” Exactly! But the truth is not a matter of opinion. Did you ever hear the story about the man who jumped off the top of the Eifel Tower believing he could fly.
L.O.L.
Here’s another unfortunate truth about the NATO bombs being dropped: “…Today senior members of the tribes from Zlitan came to Tripoli to give a press conference to the Libyan media about their anger at NATO’s claims that their children, women and men were legitimate targets because they were connected to the military…”
NATO’s killing of civilians in Zlitan a bigger “mistake” then it anticipated
lizziephelan | August 12, 2011 at 5:20 pm | Categories: Africa, Anti-imperialism, Libya, nato, Unity amongst oppressed communities | URL: http://wp.me/p1kfb7-gh
Another example of NATO killing children…how much worse does it have to get to formally charge NATO?
NATO Missiles Target Libyan Hospital, Kill 50 Children
by grtv
On August 5, 2011, NATO air missiles targeted a children’s hospital in Zlitan, Libya, killing 50 children. This event clearly reveals NATO war crimes and shows that civilians are being targeted during the bombing campaigns.
Bert,…one fine point that I accidentally left out when addressing what the Muslim culture supports is: honor killings. Some Muslims have even practiced honor killings here in the U.S. Now, Bert, who are you going to hold responsible for honor killings? Yes, I am talking about the Muslim practice that mandates parents kill their children if they dishonor the family. Surely, you aren’t going to even attempt to blame Gadhafi! So, the bottom line is: in Libya there is ONE group of Muslims (pro and against Gadhafites)that human rights groups now define has being guilty of human rights abuses. You’re next recommendation, Bert, is?
Bert, isn’t this the stupidest thing that you’ve ever heard?
“…Today senior members of the tribes from Zlitan came to Tripoli to give a press conference to the Libyan media about their anger at NATO’s claims that their children, women and men were legitimate targets because they were connected to the military…”
NATO’s killing of civilians in Zlitan a bigger “mistake” then it anticipated
lizziephelan | August 12, 2011 at 5:20 pm | Categories: Africa, Anti-imperialism, Libya, nato, Unity amongst oppressed communities | URL: http://wp.me/p1kfb7-gh
NATO Missiles Target Libyan Hospital, Kill 50 Children
by grtv
On August 5, 2011, NATO air missiles targeted a children’s hospital in Zlitan, Libya, killing 50 children. This event clearly reveals NATO war crimes and shows that civilians are being targeted during the bombing campaigns.
Anyone remember this great American feat? (heavy on the sarcasm)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHk4TGWx0ZM
The My Lai Massacre was the mass murder of 347–504 unarmed citizens in South Vietnam on March 16, 1968, conducted by “Charlie” company, 1st battalion, 20th infantry, 11th infantry brigade, of the American Division, United States Army. All of the victims were civilians and most were women, children (including babies), and elderly people. Many of the victims were raped, beaten, tortured, and some of the bodies were found mutilated.[2]
The massacre took place in the hamlets of Mỹ Lai and My Khe of Sơn Mỹ village during the Vietnam War.[3][4] While 26 US soldiers were initially charged with criminal offenses for their actions at Mỹ Lai, only 2nd Lt. William Calley, a platoon leader in charlie company, was convicted of killing 22 villagers. Originally given a life sentence, he served three and a half years under house arrest.
When the incident became public knowledge in 1969, it prompted widespread outrage around the world. The massacre also increased domestic opposition to the US involvement in the Vietnam War. Three US servicemen who made an effort to halt the massacre and protect the wounded were later denounced by US Congressmen. They received hate mail, death threats and found mutilated animals on their doorsteps.[5] It would take 30 years before they were honored for their efforts.[6]
The massacre is also known as the ‘Sơn Mỹ Massacre’ (Vietnamese: thảm sát Sơn Mỹ) or sometimes as the ‘Song Mỹ Massacre.'[7] The US military codeword for the hamlet was Pinkville.[8]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHk4TGWx0ZM
Anyone remember this great American feat? (heavy on the sarcasm)
The My Lai Massacre was the mass murder of 347–504 unarmed citizens in South Vietnam on March 16, 1968, conducted by “Charlie” company, 1st battalion, 20th infantry, 11th infantry brigade, of the American Division, United States Army. All of the victims were civilians and most were women, children (including babies), and elderly people. Many of the victims were raped, beaten, tortured, and some of the bodies were found mutilated.[2]
The massacre took place in the hamlets of Mỹ Lai and My Khe of Sơn Mỹ village during the Vietnam War.[3][4] While 26 US soldiers were initially charged with criminal offenses for their actions at Mỹ Lai, only 2nd Lt. William Calley, a platoon leader in charlie company, was convicted of killing 22 villagers. Originally given a life sentence, he served three and a half years under house arrest.
When the incident became public knowledge in 1969, it prompted widespread outrage around the world. The massacre also increased domestic opposition to the US involvement in the Vietnam War. Three US servicemen who made an effort to halt the massacre and protect the wounded were later denounced by US Congressmen. They received hate mail, death threats and found mutilated animals on their doorsteps.[5] It would take 30 years before they were honored for their efforts.[6]
The massacre is also known as the ‘Sơn Mỹ Massacre’ (Vietnamese: thảm sát Sơn Mỹ) or sometimes as the ‘Song Mỹ Massacre.'[7] The US military codeword for the hamlet was Pinkville.[8]
Children, children in hospitals, and relatives of government officials are legitimate NATO targets? What western standards are being applied by NATO? Can you imagine that being applied here in the democratic United States of America?
Libya Diary: Condolences to the Martyrs of the North Atlantic Terrorist Organisation’s attack on Zlitan
lizziephelan | August 19, 2011 at 12:39 am | Categories: Africa, Anti-imperialism, Libya, nato | URL: http://wp.me/p1kfb7-he
“…Today we received the terrible news,..targetting of the assassination of government spokesman, Dr Moussa Ibrahim’s, younger brother Hassan and three of his friends.
They were assassinated by a British Apache gunship in Zawiya. The media is going to claim that because he was armed (although we have no verification of this) he was a legitimate military target. But that would make the vast majority of Libyans over the age of 18 a “legitimate target”… most of the country is armed to protect themselves…
when they reached Zawiya they found …The fighting was nowhere near the city centre of Zawiya,… his friend convinced him to spend some more days there for a Ramadan break.
Today, an Apache helicopter came out of nowhere and assassinated him and two of his friends…
It is the rebels failure to capture Zawiya and other Libyan cities peacefully, or with any semblance of popular support, that has led the arrogant NATO to attempt to create facts on the ground through attacks such as these…
In our collection quest to assert the right answer, here is one insider’s opinion.
AN ANTI-GADHAFI LIBYAN SAYS:
“…I am speaking to you as a Libyan, I am from the city of Tripoli, and even though I have been opposed to Qaddafi’s political views and his internal and external policies for years…it is with absolutely certainty that what NATO, the rebels, and others whom we don’t know, have caused more destruction then what Mumaar Al Qaddafi has done in the last 42 years!…”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/aug/21/libya-nato-intervention-gaddafi
Breaking from Newsmax.com
Kucinich: Try NATO Commanders as War Criminals
Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, has been an outspoken critic of U.S. military action in Libya since it began six months ago, even saying President Barack Obama’s policy amounted to “an impeachable offense.”
Now, as Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi’s regime appears to be toppling, Kucinich is ramping up his criticism with the contention that NATO commanders in Libya should be tried in court for killing civilians, Politico reports.
“NATO’s top commanders may have acted under color of international law, but they are not exempt from international law,” Kucinich said in a statement issued Tuesday.
“If members of the Gadhafi regime are to be held accountable, NATO’s top commanders must also be held accountable through the International Criminal Court for all civilian deaths resulting from bombing,” Kucinich said. “Otherwise, we will have witnessed the triumph of a new international gangsterism.”
Anyone who watches Max Keiser will know that we have been witnessing the all-pervasive “triumph of a new international gangsterism.” for years. I am sorry to say that I wouldn’t hold my breath for NATO to be tried for war crimes.
Maybe the news from Libya might not be that bad for the rebel leaders have not yet been on television assuring the world of their victory. And you might even say “what rebel leaders?”
Libyan media are blocked from broadcasting by NATO which means they are trying to hide what is going on from the world.
NATO still bombing the country.
I heard this morning that South Africa is at last standing up to the new colonialist and blocking the American attempt to give money belonging to the Libyan State to the rebels as if they would in any case (and if any rebels now exist).