Longstanding International Decision on Armenian-Azerbaijani Borders as a Basis for a Conflict Resolution

Al Seb

June 14, 2012 at 5:17 am

Excellent article! This should be a good lesson to blind pro Azeri folks. Karabagh was, is and will remain Armenian.

Դավիթ Աբրահամյան

June 14, 2012 at 12:51 pm

Yes! IT IS TIME!!!

WAYNE MERRY

June 14, 2012 at 10:01 pm

Given that my name is used extensively in this article, I am forced to point out that the characterization of my presentation is tendentious and often simply wrong. In no way do I support or associate myself with the 1920 arbitration award (noting that the United States was not a member of the arbitration commission nor a signatory of the implementing treaty) nor can my name be honestly used to advocate this approach.

Jeremy R. Hammond

June 15, 2012 at 4:10 am

Could you please be more specific? If there are errors or misrepresentations, I would be happy to post a correction.
- Davit Abrahamyan
  
  June 15, 2012 at 3:59 pm
  
  Dear Mr. Hammond,
  Thank you for your objectivity!
  The Foreign Policy Journal will keep its high rating only if it continues publishing the point of views of all the sides of the conflct.
  - Jeremy R. Hammond
    
    June 16, 2012 at 1:21 am
    
    You are welcome!

Mamed

June 15, 2012 at 12:48 am

Don’t worry Mr Merry, that’s how nationalists like Papyan blackmail entire International Community. If Azerbaijan is illegally created country, then Armenia is twice illegal. Because it was created by the good will of Georgia and Azerbaijan in 1918.

Nari

June 15, 2012 at 4:52 pm

Do not worry, Mamed, Mr. Merry is a professional, as Mr. Papian is.
And as every Professional, Mr. Merry will be acquainted with the existing documentation and will come to the right and unprejudiced conclusions.

Gohar

June 15, 2012 at 4:21 am

Azerbaijan is a fake illegal state. Artsakh has never been part of independent Azerbaijan and will never ever be. Azeries, deal with it.

Mamed

June 16, 2012 at 1:40 am

Then how did Mr Robik Kocharyan had graduated from Baku Party School in Soviet times, if Artsakh has never been part of Azerbaijan?

Observer

June 15, 2012 at 10:00 am

I really wonder how any serious publication can publish such nonsense. The author basically proposes to discard more than 90 years of history, ignore the internationally accepted borders, and expand Armenia further on the basis of the fictitious maps. The author is completely out of touch with reality, and lives in the world of imagination. Just read what he writes:

As long as the Republic of Azerbaijan maintains its occupation of not just 19.400 sq.km of territory of the Republic of Armenia, but also continues to demonstrate claims towards territory of the Republic of Armenia currently liberated from Azerbaijani occupation, there will not be stability in the region.

So he claims that it is not Armenia that occupies the territory of Azerbaijan, but on the contrary, Azerbaijan occupies Armenian territory?! One can wonder how come then that Azerbaijan has 800,000 refugees and IDPs on its own land. In general, I think Foreign Policy Journal is becoming a joke, publishing totally insane articles that make you wonder if the editors actually read what they publish.

Observer's Observer

June 15, 2012 at 4:13 pm

The wrongs happened during the history must be corrected, even if they were there a century ago. Civilization corrected the 1000 years’ history of the Jewish people, 70 years’ history of USSR, Yugoslavia etc… IT IS TIME for Armenia and Armenians!
Արմեն

June 15, 2012 at 4:29 pm

Why do you think that Stalin’s wrongs may or must be kept in South Caucasus?
Jeremy R. Hammond

June 16, 2012 at 12:22 am

Yes, “Observer”, I read this carefully before publishing it. Foreign Policy Journal, you see, publishes articles from all perspectives. If you wish only to read articles from a single point of view, by all means, turn elsewhere for your information. I, for one, found Mr. Papian’s point of view to be interesting and thought it worth sharing. I think it’s too bad people like you would prefer only one perspective, the “mainstream” one, to be allowed to be published on important international issues.
- Observer
  
  June 17, 2012 at 11:51 am
  
  Dear Mr Hammond,
  
  What exactly do you find so interesting about this piece of fiction? The fact that the author claims that it is Azerbaijan that is occupying Armenian territory despite UNO, EU, PACE and most of world governments saying otherwise and Azerbaijan having 800,000 refugees and IDPs from those territories? I don’t prefer only one perspective, in that case I would not be reading international media. It is just the total absurdity and unscholarly nature of this article that made me wonder about your editorial policy.
  - Jeremy R. Hammond
    
    June 17, 2012 at 1:43 pm
    
    You will note I published this as an opinion piece, and I feel the author is entitled to his view. As for the facts he uses to support his opinion, if you think any are “fiction”, please let me know.

Ara Papian

June 15, 2012 at 12:04 pm

Dear Mr. Wayne Merry,

1. You have called for “forceful arbitration” thus I could not avoid mentioning your name because it is very serious suggestion. I did not say that you are for the decision of February 24, 1920. I said that “The proposal by Wayne Merry to resolve the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict by arbitration is completely acceptable and realistic…” and went on saying if there is already one there why to go for a new one?
2. I did not say that “the United Stated was member of arbitration commission or signatory to implementing treaty.” I said that the document: ” expressed the joint view of Britain, France, Italy, and Japan on the borders in the southern Caucasus, …” Nevertheless the United States is part of that decision and is under legal obligation because it is Document # 2 of Appendix # 1 of the Arbitral award done by the President of the United States Woodrow Wilson on the boundary between Armenia and Turkey on November 22, 1922. In that document you can find not only the signatures of the President and State Secretly of the United Stats but also the Great Seal of the United States. Appendices of any given international instrument are integral part of that instrument. Take for example the infamous appendices of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
3. If anyone has any doubt what I have cited here or regarding the attached map please go to the National Archives and Records Administration of the USA file # 760J.6715/60 – 760J.90C/7 and you will be proved that everything was done correctly by me and there is no misuse of any document or map.

Ara Papian

June 15, 2012 at 3:21 pm

Sorry there is an error in the text. The Arbitral Award’s date is November 22 of 1920 not 1922.

Mamed

June 16, 2012 at 3:23 am

A crucial error, Mr Papian. In November 1920 Azerbaijan was under Red Army, whether Armenia was not. In 1922 no one cared about independent Caucasus states, including the USA.
- Ara Papian
  
  June 16, 2012 at 10:08 am
  
  Mamed,
  
  The United States cared about Armenia in 1922 and later on. US continued the official recognition of the Republic of Armenia (granted on April 23 1920) until 1933. (By the way Azerbaijan (and Georgia) never were recognized by the USA)
  
  Wilson’s Arbitral Award was hot topic for years. See the Platforms of the Democratic Party of 1924 and 1928 or the discussions in US Congress in January 1927. The United States always insisted on the implementation of Wilson’s Arbitral Award.

Nari

June 15, 2012 at 5:08 pm

I don’t understand where do turks take from such a history. Seems Mamed is talking about the creation of Azerbaijan. I hope someday your generations will forgive you for making theme live in a lie.

Mamed

June 16, 2012 at 1:52 am

At least Mamed hasn’t come from Mesopotamia with the faked Ethiopian alphabet. Turks are Turks, Azerbaijanis are Azerbaijanis, just like Armenians are Armenians and Karabakh Armenians are Karabakh Armenians.

Mamed

June 16, 2012 at 2:51 am

Forceful arbitration sounds as a good idea. But does it necessarily mean granting half of Turkey, entire Azerbaijan and 70 percent of Georgia to Armenia? It may also mean implementation of 4 UN resolutions on the withdrawal of the Armenian armed forces from the occupied territories of Azerbaijan.
Forceful arbitration sounds as a good idea. Especially when the two very closely related peoples, who share everything from music to cuisine are not able to make peace.
Otherwise Baku government will wait until its military budget reaches the volumes of the military budget of the USA and nationalist heads in Yerevan and Stepanakert will be ready to fight to the last drop of blood of the Russian soldier.

Jacob

June 16, 2012 at 4:24 am

Mamed, the often parroted juvenile threats ( of taking Karabakh back militarily) are not going to solve any problems. Suffice it to say that Azeris will never be able to “take” Karabakh back. Without any bravado one should come to grips with two fundamental realities, 1) Armenians cannot leave Karabakh, it is their Fatherland. Artsakh has been the Armenians’ home for three millennia and will not heed to the calls of a two-bit despotic dictator, which brings us to the second point; 2) Azerbaijan’s military budget does not determine its abilities to take on Karabakh, especially when one realizes that the Aliyev-clan uses the army to stay in power and to protect himself (and his wife) from any ” criminal wrong doings” while in office.

The Azeri parliament, just a few days ago, passed a resolution granting immunity to the president (and his wife, interestingly). The resolution says : “Lifetime immunity for the President and his wife from criminal prosecution for any acts committed while in office”

This is the beginning of the end for this despot. The Azris are well aware that the only peaceful outcome of the conflict is to finally admit that they cannot hold on to the lies and anti-Armenian racism disseminated by Aliyev.

Azerbaijan will sign a treaty with an independent Artsakh. This is a viable and a peaceful solution to the problem.
- Mamed
  
  June 17, 2012 at 1:18 am
  
  Yagub, bravado is not for Azerbaijanis, it is (at the moment) for those who has stationed 30 000 Russian troops in their territory. I don’t care about the corrupt and Kurdish Aliyev family. But I believe that one day we will make peace with our Artsakh brothers, whom by the way, some nationalists used to call “shurtvats” or “turkajur”. And once more – Karabakh Armenians are our brothers.

Davit Babikyan

June 16, 2012 at 5:35 pm

Mamed,

I think you are as a mixture of different ethnic groups are trying to find out a national identity. But where from, if even the name of that country was created at the beginning of the last century for further territorial annexation political plans from Iran. Developing your national Azeri identity is a good thing to do for your young nation, but do it from your own Central Asian past, and do not mix with Armenians, Daghestanis, Georgians, etc.

Mamed

June 16, 2012 at 9:09 pm

Davud you must investigate your Mesopotamian roots. Armenians have nothing to do with the Caucasus. And Karabakh Armenians are our brothers.

Davit Babikyan

June 16, 2012 at 6:50 pm

Dear Mr. Merry,
I hope I am not the first who will ask you one more time to remember or revise historical facts, and later write down your honest and apparently professional statements.

Mamed

June 16, 2012 at 9:11 pm

Don’t pay attention, Mr Merry. He is an ordinary Dashnak nag.

GB

June 17, 2012 at 2:39 am

Mammed,
Why don’t you pronounce your real name as Mohammed!! it is more Islamic and more respectable name among our readers!! I wonder why your name turn to red as spelling error!!

Mamed

June 17, 2012 at 3:23 am

Dear GB, I am not asking why you are GB. I don’t know if it stands for GaraBagh or GaraBed. There is a big difference between Mohammed and Mamed. Mamed is native to Caucasus, Mohammed is not. So, please, consider Mamed as respectable as Mohammed among your readers. Best regards.

Jack

June 17, 2012 at 8:31 am

The biggest problem with this issue is that people take serious academic conversations down to a street level argument. Mr. Papian, thank you for your article. Reading a little bit of history (neither written by Armenians, Azeris, nor Soviet communists) may help us all get enlightened about the history of our people and our two nations, not to mention that we would also be greatly enlightened when we do some reading about archeological evidence dating pre-mongolian invasions. Who are the Azeris, and why do they say they are the cousins of Turks? Where were the Turks 1000 years ago? Is there any doubt that Armenians were there at least 1000 years before them? And should this be taken into consideration when we talk about this topic or not?

Observer

June 17, 2012 at 12:16 pm

Ancient history is of no consequence to the modern politics. 1000 years ago Native Americans were grazing cattle at Manhattan. Why not returning it to them, for the sake of historical justice? 1000 years ago most of European nations did not exist, and that includes modern Germans, Italians, French, English, etc. Would you propose eliminating all those people? Armenian politicians need to stop living in the world of historical illusions. There will never be the “Great Armenia”of Tigran. Armenians (same as Georgians, Azerbaijanis, Moldovans, etc) are lucky to have their own state, because there are bigger stateless people out there, who may never have their own state. This is something people need to appreciate, and stop dreaming about great empires, when you cannot properly sustain your limited population. Get real, the modern world is ruled by the international law, created after the WW2, and it provides for the inviolability of the internationally recognized borders. That means there will be no return to any border drafts, whether real or not, made before 1945.
Mamed

June 17, 2012 at 6:56 pm

Dear Jack
The problem of Armenian and Azeri nationalists is that they are mixing up the history (ancient history) with modern day politics. I am not even saying that according to very serious historians Armenians are not aborigine to Caucasus. No one is aborigine in this world. Indians were in America 5000 years before Irish, Anglo-Sax, French and Germans. Does it matter today. Of course not. Today’s reality is that there is abnormal enmity between Azeris and Karabakh Armenians. It is the enmity between two brothers. When I say brothers I take into consideration genetic findings too. There is such an ethnic group called Dungans. They live in far east. According to the genetic data they are the most Turkic people (96 per), but their mother tongue is Chinese!!! So let’s let historylay where it lays. And let’s think about peace. Because neither Azeris nor Armenians need too much territory which historians are claiming for them. Regards and Mamed is leaving. It is very difficult to talk to people who are convinced in their rightness based on something has been written 2000 years ago. Even at the street level.
- Ara Papian
  
  June 17, 2012 at 9:03 pm
  
  Dear Mamed,
  
  I do not care too much about the history in politics. But historical facts are good knowledge and very useful always. Although, my article is not about the history but about a legal document which has no statutory limitation. So it is part of today’s politics.
  
  I agree that we have to move from history away. Sometime it is really overloaded with problems. So that’s forget that during Soviet time in 1921-1991 Karabagh was under Baku administration (not part of Azerbaijan, because Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, Karabagh, etc. all were parts of one county – USSR. From legal point there was no Armenia or Azerbaijan. They were not subjects of international law), sign a peace treaty and live in peace. Why do you want to reverse the history? We have new realities on the ground at least since 1994, for 18 years. If you consider what was 92 years ago a history why not consider what was 21 years ago just history. There is no Soviet Union for 21 years. What’s the principle deference? Numbers?
  - Mamed
    
    June 17, 2012 at 11:11 pm
    
    Dear Ara
    Very easy, isn’t it? First you occupy territory of another country, by the help of another country, by the way and then you announce that it is today’s history. There was already one Austrian guy who was writing his time’s history. And you know what happened next. Karabakh problem will find its solution when American, Moscow or Yerevan Armenian politician will let us alone. As I said Karabakh Armenians are our brothers and believe me one day we will find solution.
    Best regards
    - Davit Abrahamyan
      
      June 17, 2012 at 11:58 pm
      
      Dear Mamed or Mamikon,
      If there is a lot of differences (genetical, ethnological, linguistic etc.) between Turks and Azeris, it does not mean that Armenians from Eastern Armenia (including Karabakh or Artsakh) or Western Armenia (which is currently occupied by Turkey) are different. Armenian means Armenian, nothing else.
      And if you declare that so called “Karabakh Armenians” are your brother, I do not understand why and how did you kill your brothers?
      And why don’t you accept the good will of your “brothers”, i.e. their right for self-determination and reconnection with their motherland Armenia? Artsakh and its native Armenian population will feel safer in Armenia…
      It is better if you think about your other “brothers” – Talishs, Daghs etc., who also feel your “warm brotherwood” in Azerbaijan…

Mamed

June 18, 2012 at 12:47 am

Dear Davud

At last you understood, that Mamikon is someone more Azeri than Hay. And if Armenian means Armenian, why Frangs when asked say: We are Armenians, but not Hays.
Unfortunately it happens when brothers are killing each other. It is well documented in the Bible.
Serbs, Bosnians and Croatians are speaking the same language, still they needed NATO to refresh their minds.
And I don’t care if you like it or not, Karabakh Armenians are our brothers.
I would suggest you treat your false nationalism, otherwise it will end you.

Best Regards

Mamed Mamiklonyan

Davit Abrahamyan

June 18, 2012 at 1:39 pm

Dear Mamikon,
Mamikon is Armenian name, that’s why I used it.
FYI, I am “Karabakh Armenian” and all my brothers who live to in Artsakh or any other region of Armenia are Armenians.
Of course I admit that maybe your ancestors were Armenians who admitted Islam under the Tartars’ pressure… So come back to your Armenian roots and I’ll admit that you are my brother…
Otherwise, stay at your safe place, far from my motherland – Republic of Armenia.
With sincere wishes to my Armenian brother,
Davit Abrahamyan

ANTITURAN

June 18, 2012 at 2:04 am

not very dear MAMED, i specially mention u as MAMED, because even the word MUHAMMAD, u “modified” it turkic way as “MAMED” u modified ancestory of a Persian NEZAMI GANJAVI and he suddenly became a “turk” u modified ancestory of Lezgian Composer Uzeir HAJIBEKOV( u made him as HAJIBEYLI) and laimed him as a “turk” isn’t that assimilation and fashizm? u can go somewhere else and speak out ur legends about armenian “nationalists” but no here, who claimed a chachen Muslim Magomayev as a “turkic azeri” singer?
U-people living in ARRAN are not AZARI, u are mostly mix between azaris and ARRANI people, u do not have any clue with AZARBAJAN which is located in IRAN, the place where is located Azerbajan republic is ARRAN but not azerbajan

Mamed

June 18, 2012 at 3:54 am

Antiviran! Ur not interesting, matakh.
Mamed

June 18, 2012 at 4:27 am

To BARAN from ARAN

Listen to this three times a day and get cured from ur illness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiFFMKlaQ-M
Mamed

June 18, 2012 at 5:00 am

Baran is a Russian word by the way. Refer to dictionaries.

ANTITURAN

June 18, 2012 at 5:25 am

to “mehmet” from Iran, my “baran” will not fit in Your mouth, pic ipne

ANTITURAN

June 18, 2012 at 5:31 am

U “gara or ak KOYUN” by writing down MUSLIM MAGOMAYEV “azerbaijani” Muslim Magomayev is not becoming an AKKOYUN or KARAKOYUN, as much u say HALVA, it will not be sweetened your dirty Mouth

ANTITURAN

June 18, 2012 at 5:35 am

Let’s see how u politicized NEZAMI GANJAVI, who never said or wrote in turkic
this is for u ak KOYUN

http://www.kavehfarrokh.com/articles/pan-turanism/the-politicization-of-nezami-ganjavi/

GB

June 19, 2012 at 4:58 pm

Dear antituran,
I have noticed, since last 50 years Azerpeelani Turkic tribes all of sudden woke up, just like their big brothers of Turkey, and started stealing culture and alphabets from Persians, Arabs, Armenians, Georgians, latest Cyrillic alphabets and now Latin. Even their last names adopted from Russian OV and they are planning to change something that will fit as Turkic…I won’t be surprised they will claim that Mohammad name spelling is wrong, and “Mamed” and Ganjavi both were born in Altai mountain, and they read and write spoke their sweet ancestral Altai languages!!

ANTITURAN

June 20, 2012 at 12:02 am

totally agree with you, plus u forgot to mention that the rejime in Baku(ALIEVBAJAN republic) is not only stealing from Armenians, Persians, Russians, they are also stealing the Heritage of the aborigene nations of ARRAN(so called Az. republic), they Represent Lezgian Rugs as “azerbajani carpets, meanwhile all world knows that AZARBAJANI carpets are made in Real AZARBAJAN, which is located in Iran